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Thread: Aurora Borealis - Bora (etymology)

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    Aurora Borealis - Bora (etymology)

    I have been trying to find out whether there is a link between these two words.


    In Turkic dialects, Bora means "Northern Wind" ~ "Northern snowy whirlwind". Might or might not be related with the verb "bur" meaning "to twist, wind round"

    What is the etymology of "Aurora Borialis"?
    Is the "Borialis" part related with the Turkic word Bora (Bora is also a common given name. It's a common practice to give babies names of nature)
    Is there any possibility that the name Aurora is related with the Turkic root "*or-" meaning "shine". Or maybe *jar- meaning "shine, dawn, light"

    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...roto&ic_any=on

    Then again, there is the word "Bura" I talked about earlier meaning "the spirit horse that takes a holy person to Northern Star" so it could also be related with the direction itself. I'm not sure.
    Last edited by ancalimon; 2nd August 2012 at 4:55 PM.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    No, the borealis in the name of the natural phenomenon comes from the Greek «Βορέας/Βοῤῥᾶς» bŏ'rĕās [uncontracted]/bŏr'rhās [contracted], Homeric «Βορέης/Βορῆς» bŏ'rĕēs [uncontracted]/bŏ'rēs [contracted] --> the North, north wind from PIE *gʷer-/*gʷerh₃-, mountain, hill (cf. proto-Slavic *gora, Lith. gire, Skt. गिरि (gi'ri), Lat. Boreas > It. bora).
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    In Turkic dialects, Bora means "Northern Wind" ~ "Northern snowy whirlwind"
    Can you give a reference for this? I have not found it in a dictionary.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    Can you give a reference for this? I have not found it in a dictionary.
    Apparently in the given link, http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...roto&ic_any=on, and under the Turkic group it cites Turkish "bora(k)" in that sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon
    I have been trying to find out whether there is a link between these two words.
    But any connection between the Greek word and, according to the above link, a Proto-Altaic "poru*" sounds far-fetched. Perhaps specially when it is heeded that the Greek word, as well as its development, appears long before any recorded touches between Turks and Greeks.
    Quaere Verum

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Here it cites another variant, "boran" (http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=bora). Seemingly the Turkic etymology is itself disputed, regarding an assumable Iranian influence (note: Persian "baran").
    Quaere Verum

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    In Turkic dialects, Bora means "Northern Wind" ~ "Northern snowy whirlwind".
    Certainly a loan from Greek or accidentally similar. The "bora" wind from the Alps is also mentioned by latin authors.
    In order to avoid many questions on turkic words sounding like greek, may I remind you that many "turkic" words actually come from persian or arabic, i.e. from a world that was either IE-speaking or anyway in touch with the greek language from hellenistic time till at least 8th c. AD, that is almost 1000 years. Add the turkification of the greek-speakers or christians of Anatolia and you can explain many such cases.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by sotos View Post
    Certainly a loan from Greek or accidentally similar. The "bora" wind from the Alps is also mentioned by latin authors.
    In order to avoid many questions on turkic words sounding like greek, may I remind you that many "turkic" words actually come from persian or arabic, i.e. from a world that was either IE-speaking or anyway in touch with the greek language from hellenistic time till at least 8th c. AD, that is almost 1000 years. Add the turkification of the greek-speakers or christians of Anatolia and you can explain many such cases.
    Are you sure that it's not borrowed from the Trusc? Alp is probably an Etruscan word itself.

    Also the Greeks probably did not influence for example the Kazakh Turks or Mongolians like they influenced the Anatolian Turks.
    Last edited by ancalimon; 4th August 2012 at 6:23 PM.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Are you sure that it's not borrowed from the Trusc? Alp is probably an Etruscan word itself.
    But we are not certain at all if the Greek word is ever borrowed. That is its Indo-European etymology is not disputed, at least up to the present time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Also the Greeks probably did not influence for example the Kazakh Turks or Mongolians like they influenced the Anatolian Turks.
    I agree too. Although the bulk of the Turkish speakers in today Central and Western Turkey are for sure of a thick Greek background (along with other backgrounds of course), but the Greek language cannot be safely regarded in this case as a source for Turkic "bora(n)".
    Quaere Verum

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    I have been trying to find out whether there is a link between these two words.


    In Turkic dialects, Bora means "Northern Wind" ~ "Northern snowy whirlwind". Might or might not be related with the verb "bur" meaning "to twist, wind round"

    What is the etymology of "Aurora Borialis"?
    Is the "Borialis" part related with the Turkic word Bora (Bora is also a common given name. It's a common practice to give babies names of nature)
    Is there any possibility that the name Aurora is related with the Turkic root "*or-" meaning "shine". Or maybe *jar- meaning "shine, dawn, light"

    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...roto&ic_any=on

    Then again, there is the word "Bura" I talked about earlier meaning "the spirit horse that takes a holy person to Northern Star" so it could also be related with the direction itself. I'm not sure.
    Of course there is none.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    what is the meaning of Bhur in Sanskrit. for me it is praise and show/become visible. and the term Aurora Borialis may mean The lights that become visible.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    what is the meaning of Bhur in Sanskrit. for me it is praise and show/become visible. and the term Aurora Borialis may mean The lights that become visible.
    Personally, I have it so far as:
    124 буря būrya bhur भुर्
    burya storm to move rapidly or convulsively
    Quite correctly linked to bhur भुर् by VAS. See буран buran, бурав burav, бурен burjen. BG бура; буря; SLO búrja; CZ bouře; PL burza VAS 4
    and
    118 буран burān burāna bhuraṇa भुरण
    buran snow-storm quick, active
    Believed to be a Turkic loan. Cp. TR buran ‘twisting, penetrating, piercing’, Tartar buran ‘snow – storm’, Mongolian borugan, Kalmyk borān. The connection with the Sanskrit bhur भुर्, bhuraṇa भुरण is evident and this fact puts the Turkic origin theory in doubt. See also бурав burav, буря burja. Probably a Nostratic root. GUS 4
    Also
    122 бурун burūn - burunā bhuraṇa भुरण
    burūn breaker, bow-wave quick, active
    See буря burja, буран buran N 4

    17 бур,бурав būr - a, burāv - ā bhur भुर्
    bur - a, burav - a auger, gimlet to move rapidly or convulsively, stir, palpitate, quiver
    Vasmer noted a particular difficulty of explaining the etymology of this word. There is a seemingly easy connection with the Swedish borr ‘drill’, which has a direct Russian cognate бур bur but it can not explain the Russian бурав burav. Vasmer was inclined to seek its origin in the Turkic languages. Most likely, the words бур bur, барав burav, буран buran, буря burya, as well as the relevant Turkic and Altaic words and also the Sanskrit root bhur भुर् are all cognates descending to a common Nostratic root (ISV, 186). The SA bur भुर् 'to move rapidly or convulsively, stir, palpitate, quiver' quite explicitly describes the nature of the movement of a drill. The SA bāra बार ‘an opening, aperture’ is also worth consideration and may be a direct derivative. UA бурав N 4
    Last edited by Dhira Simha; 25th August 2012 at 11:30 AM.
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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    According to Max Vasmer, Russian бора (bora - specific gale-force wind at the northern coast of Black Sea) is loaned from Turkish bora < modern Greek μπόρα or Italian bora, which is the primary source for all of them.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    According to Max Vasmer, Russian бора (bora - specific gale-force wind at the northern coast of Black Sea) is loaned from Turkish bora < modern Greek μπόρα or Italian bora, which is the primary source for all of them.
    Yes, he thought so but this is just an opinion. Generally, linking a word to another word in a different language does not amount to "etymology" in its primordial meaning: ἔτυμος étymos, "true, genuine (meaning of a word)" and λόγος lógos, "account, explanation". Of all languages only Sansktit can offer an insight into the possible meaning of this word "to move rapidly or convulsively" which exactly conveys the nature of the word "gale". Phonetically, bhur is fully compatible with bora. I think fdb would not object from a purely phonetic side.
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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhira Simha View Post
    Yes, he thought so but this is just an opinion. Generally, linking a word to another word in a different language does not amount to "etymology" in its primordial meaning: ἔτυμος étymos, "true, genuine (meaning of a word)" and λόγος lógos, "account, explanation". Of all languages only Sansktit can offer an insight into the possible meaning of this word "to move rapidly or convulsively" which exactly conveys the nature of the word "gale". Phonetically, bhur is fully compatible with bora. I think fdb would not object from a purely phonetic side.
    I am sorry, I don't understand your reasoning. Association via semantic "exegesis" is at least as shaky. In the case of the wind the Turkish loan hypothesis seems more plausible to me.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    The first part of the initial question was
    in Turkic dialects, Bora means "Northern Wind" ~ "Northern snowy whirlwind". Might or might not be related with the verb "bur" meaning "to twist, wind round"
    I do not see any reason why the Sanskrit bhur भुर् "to move rapidly or convulsively" can not be associated with
    the verb "bur" meaning "to twist, wind round"
    and also with "strong (gale) wind, storm". Semantically, it is quite compatible. Definitely, more compatible than the presumed
    the North, north wind from PIE *gʷer-/*gʷerh₃-, mountain, hill
    Phonetically and semantically Skr. bhur भुर् , Tartar buran ‘snow – storm’, Mongolian borugan, Kalmyk borān etc. and Rus. burya, buran "storm, snow sorm" are compatible. The Russian evidence is particularly interesting because burya, buran "storm, snow sorm" can not be separated from Rus. burūn "breaker, bow-wave" and burit' "to bore" and this serves as an additional link to Skr. bhur भुर् and bhuraṇa भुरण. As a theory, mine is quite sound and intelligible. Byond this we enter the field of subjective preferencies. You may like the "the Turkish loan hypothesis" more. That is your choice which I respect. After all, etymology is not an exact science.
    Last edited by Dhira Simha; 29th August 2012 at 3:53 PM.
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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Is there a possible link between Sanskrit word bhur which means to move rapidly or convulsively and the Arabic word burak which is related with lightning (I talked about the word burak. The horse that supposedly was ridden by some prophets)?

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Is there a possible link between Sanskrit word bhur which means to move rapidly or convulsively and the Arabic word burak which is related with lightning (I talked about the word burak. The horse that supposedly was ridden by some prophets)?
    Why would they be cognates? One is native IE, the other is native Semitic.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    Why would they be cognates? One is native IE, the other is native Semitic.
    Yes I know. That's actually why I was asking about a possible proposed link.

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Hay dos grandes problemas en todas estas suposiciones.
    La primera es la aparición de la palabra en Homero, que aleja toda posibilidad de un étimo turco. Además Chantraine que estudió la palabra habla claramente de una etimología desconocida y que toda conexión entre la palabra griega y los posibles cognatos indoiranios y eslavos son sólo suposiciones y especulaciones sin ninguna base real.
    La segunda es el pseudo étimo etrusco para alp-/alb- 'montaña', que es una palabra "antiguo europea" (que según muchos estudiosos designa las palabras protocélticas de la toponimia europea bien conocidas: Alpes, Alba, etc, que designan montes (desde mi casa en Galicia se divisa el monte Alba, denominación tautológica).
    La etimología es difícil a veces, y más con topónimos, nombres de vientos, etc., pero no una cadena de suposiciones basadas en parecidos fónicos de palabras a veces muy distanciadas en el espacio y en el tiempo y por eso no comparables.
    Es más lógico y fácil suponer un préstamo del griego al turco (que es una lengua de superestrato con respecto al griego anatólico).
    καὶ Αιὲν ο κόσμος ο μικρὀς, ο Μέγας! - e sempre o mundo o pequeno, o Grande!

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    Re: Aurora Borialis - Bora (etymology)

    Sorry, but the assertion
    Es más lógico y fácil suponer un préstamo del griego al turco
    is just another 'especulacione'.
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