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Thread: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

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    Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    In another thread it was pointed out that in Urdu the word for day is darvaazah as opposed to Hindi darvaazaa.
    In Urdu is there actually a final exhalation that is pronounced with set of words( vajah and jagah)? Or is 'ah' pronounced as simply as 'aa' in Urdu with no final 'H'? In Hindi is the exhalation ever pronounced for these words?

    It is also interesting to note that it IS spelt jagah and vajah in Hindi , while darvaazah somehow became darvaazaa, which is according to the actual pronunciation.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    "-ah" is very much pronounced for words like "jagah", "vajah", "fatah"/"fateh", etc., and hence the orthography. In words like "darvaazaa(h)", in Hindi no exhalation occurs, and at least in colloquial Urdu, I don't hear it.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    In another thread it was pointed out that in Urdu the word for day is darvaazah as opposed to Hindi darvaazaa.
    In Urdu is there actually a final exhalation that is pronounced with set of words( vajah and jagah)? Or is 'ah' pronounced as simply as 'aa' in Urdu with no final 'H'? In Hindi is the exhalation ever pronounced for these words?

    It is also interesting to note that it IS spelt jagah and vajah in Hindi , while darvaazah somehow became darvaazaa, which is according to the actual pronunciation.
    tonyspeed SaaHib, if I am not mistaken, "darvaazah" was suggested in place of "darvaazaa" because the thread under discussion "to look forward to" was under the banner of Urdu. For this reason it made sense to point out that in Urdu the word is "darvaazah" for the benefit of an Urdu learner, namely ihsaan jii.

    Secondly, I think this has been mentioned before. Though it may not be totally explicit, the language that we discuss at least from the perspective of Urdu is the standard written language and not the spoken colloquial one, unless of course this is clearly stated. A number of Urdu speakers try to use a transliteration scheme that closely follows the written scheme. In Urdu, the word is written as "darvaazah" because in its original Persian, it is "darvaazah".

    Is the final h aspiration pronounced in Urdu words? Well in some instances almost invariably and in others probably only by very careful speakers. There are equivalent Indic words such as gyaarah, baarah, terah... etc which I believe are pronounced with an aspiration by most average to good speakers of Urdu and Hindi. Words ending in "-aah", like Allaah, baadshaah, panaah, chaah are also pronounced. Urdu poetry gives an allowance for shortening this vowel for metrical reasons and therefore we find words such as "rah, gunah, mah, gah etc" where once again the h is pronounced. Then there is the category of words such as vajh, fatH etc where the h is pronounced even when they are pronounced as "vajah, fataH etc.

    Finally words such as mazah, bandah, aa'indah, xamyaazah into which darvaazah also falls are normally pronounced as maza, banda, aa'inda, xamyaaza and darvaaza NOT......darvaazaa! If you pronounce "darvaazah", you will surely notice that the first vowel is long and the second is short.

    I hope this has shed some light on the question
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 5th February 2013 at 11:44 PM.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    In another thread it was pointed out that in Urdu the word for day is darvaazah as opposed to Hindi darvaazaa.
    I agree with the elaboration QP SaaHib has provided for this topic, and it was indeed a case of being correct in an Urdu thread.

    Urdu word for ''day'' is darvaazah? No, it is roz, din, yaum.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post

    Finally words such as mazah, bandah, aa'indah, xamyaazah into which darvaazah also falls are normally pronounced as maza, banda, aa'inda, xamyaaza and darvaaza NOT......darvaazaa! If you pronounce "darvaazah", you will surely notice that the first vowel is long and the second is short.

    I hope this has shed some light on the question

    So once again another word where the pronunciation is different. In Hindi darvaazaa and Urdu darvaaza (spelled darvaazah).

    I'm trying to make sense of how the words were transcribed into Hindi. The confusing part is the word is vajah in Hindi (often pronounced vajaah, or colloquially vaje) where as in Urdu it is written as vajh but pronounced vajaah as well. Confusing.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    So once again another word where the pronunciation is different. In Hindi darvaazaa and Urdu darvaaza (spelled darvaazah).

    I'm trying to make sense of how the words were transcribed into Hindi. The confusing part is the word is vajah in Hindi (often pronounced vajaah, or colloquially vaje) where as in Urdu it is written as vajh but pronounced vajaah as well. Confusing.
    Indeed, the final vowel in ´darvaazah´ is not of the same length as the one that follows ´z´.

    It may be confusing but Urdu is not responsible for other languages adopting a different method of transcription according to their pronunciation. I believe Hindi writes its words as they are spoken in Hindi so everything is allright.

    Yes, you are right, ''reason'' is written as vajh وجہ in Urdu and spoken so in the standard language, however the pronunciation is frequently easied to vajah. Still, vajaah is unknown to me in Urdu, this as a piece of information.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Yes, you are right, ''reason'' is written as vajh وجہ in Urdu and spoken so in the standard language, however the pronunciation is frequently easied to vajah. Still, vajaah is unknown to me in Urdu, this as a piece of information.
    is jaankaarii se sar meN dard aa paRaa..

    Hindi: vajeh, vajaah, vajah?
    Urdu: vajh, vajah

    yakiin hai ki yih jaankaarii kisii
    dictionary meN nahiiN hogii..
    Last edited by tonyspeed; 6th February 2013 at 5:21 AM.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    is jaankaarii se sar meN dard aa paRaa..

    Hindi: vajeh, vajaah, vajah?
    Urdu: vajh, vajah

    yakiin hai ki yih jaankaarii kisii
    dictionary meN nahiiN hogii..
    mujhe yaqiin nahiiN aa rahaa kih aap ko yaqiin kyoN nahiiN aa rahaa!

    vajh/vajah >>> vajeh, pronounced in the same manner as jageh by some people.

    vajh, subH >>> vajah, subah....this is same as sharm, vazn >>> sharam, vazan

    in chhoTii chhotii baatoN se apne aap par bojh mat Daaliye, janaab!

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    vajah/vajeh, subah/subeh in Hindi. I have never heard a "vajaah" in my life, in Hindi or Urdu.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    vajah/vajeh, subah/subeh in Hindi. I have never heard a "vajaah" in my life, in Hindi or Urdu.
    I have heard it many many times, especially in movies. Colloquial Hindi by Tej Bhaatia says when the proceeding vowel is unstressed , the ह is dropped but the vowel becomes long, as in vajah but pronounced vajaa, tarah but pronounced taraa. P. 58

    Does anyone have a link to the two standard tips of urdu pronunciations of vajh, jagh, or tarh?
    Last edited by tonyspeed; 6th February 2013 at 3:34 PM. Reason: question

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    ^ Now that you mention movies, I confess to have heard "vajaa(h)" and the like in TV programmes and films; I used to associate it somehow with Punjabi-influence pronunciation till now.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    I have heard it many many times, especially in movies. Colloquial Hindi by Tej Bhaatia says when the proceeding vowel is unstressed , the ह is dropped but the vowel becomes long, as in vajah but pronounced vajaa, tarah but pronounced taraa. P. 58

    Does anyone have a link to the two standard tips of urdu pronunciations of vajh, jagh, or tarh?
    This is never "jagh" in Urdu. Always with an intervening vowel, as "jagah".

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed
    is jaankaarii se sar meN dard aa paRaa..
    dard-e-sar (aur shaayad maعlumaat) meiN izaafah karne ke liye, one could also point out the difference between wajh/wazn and vajh/vazn! (Arabic derived Urdu words seem to be pronounced by many (naturally...probably not intentionally) with more of a rounded w sound rather than a sharp v sound. This would of course vary from person to person.)
    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed
    Does anyone have a link to the two standard tips of urdu pronunciations of vajh, jagh, or tarh?
    Hopefully these should work for now, YT (for wajh):
    Faiz: RAAT YUN DIL MAIN TERI KHOYEE HUI YAAD AYEE FAIZ AHMED FAIZ
    Zia Mohai-ud-deen: Faiz Ahmad Faiz-Raat yun dil mein teri
    شعر و نغمه Jafri Archives
    Last edited by Alfaaz; 6th February 2013 at 4:49 PM.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfaaz View Post
    dard-e-sar (aur shaayad maعlumaat) meiN izaafah karne ke liye, one could also point out the difference between wajh/wazn and vajh/vazn! (Arabic derived Urdu words seem to be pronounced by many (naturally...probably not intentionally) with more of a rounded w sound rather than a sharp v sound. This would of course vary from person to person.)
    Hopefully these should work for now, YT (for wajh):
    Faiz: RAAT YUN DIL MAIN TERI KHOYEE HUI YAAD AYEE FAIZ AHMED FAIZ
    Zia Mohai-ud-deen: Faiz Ahmad Faiz-Raat yun dil mein teri
    شعر و نغمه Jafri Archives

    The links are very interesting. In the first he says "vajèhè" where "è" is the short-è sound seen in the pronunciation of words like mahal.
    In the second he says "vajèh", where 'è' represents the short-è sound as well.

    That being said, it would seem that the Hindi pronounciation of vajeh is the closest to the Urdu vajèh and vajèhè, but è has become e (é).
    This makes me wonder if I have been mis-hearing vajèh as vajeh for some Hindi speakers.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    I am not sure whether you listened to the correct link. Here is the poet himself in this short clip on Youtube. Just copy paste this on YT.

    RAAT YUN DIL MAIN TERI KHOYEE HUI YAAD AYEE FAIZ AHMED FAIZ

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    The difference between tarH(a) and tarhe/jagah and jageh will probably be clearer. I can send links by PM to tonyspeed SaaHib and anyone else interested.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    I am not sure whether you listened to the correct link. Here is the poet himself in this short clip on Youtube. Just copy paste this on YT.

    RAAT YUN DIL MAIN TERI KHOYEE HUI YAAD AYEE FAIZ AHMED FAIZ

    Yes, I am distinctly hearing him say "vajèhè" in that link at around 00:22.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    Yes, I am distinctly hearing him say "vajèhè" in that link at around 00:22.
    We are then hearing different things. I am hearing him say "vajh". After the "h", there is a natural expulsion of air giving the effect/impression of an a being pronounced. The same can be said about "sharm" where there is a slight a sound, a semi a if you will.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    We are then hearing different things. I am hearing him say "vajh". After the "h", there is a natural expulsion of air giving the effect/impression of an a being pronounced. The same can be said about "sharm" where there is a slight a sound, a semi a if you will.
    Well, if you want to distinguish between the è in mahal and the multiple è sounds I am hearing vajèhè, then, yes, it is shorter, but nonetheless sounds like a è to my ears (as far as the actual sound, ignoring the duration), as opposed to an 'a'. I am not hearing the absence of a vowel sound. There is some kind of vowel sound both before and after the H. vaj-(small vowel-)h(-small vowel)

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu: final h as exhalation

    I didn't hear any vowel between [j] and [h] in the provided references, which are superb, by the way.

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