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Thread: hope+present simple/will - grammar

  1. #1
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    hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Hola

    Ya he visto varios hilos sobre este tema, pero no encuentro una regla. ¿Es posible que la oración subordinada que comienza con 'that' determine el uso de 'will'?
    Por ejemplo:

    I hope you find your money.

    I hope that you will find your money.

    ¿Podría decir que esta es la regla para el uso del presente simple o del futuro simple (will)?

    Muchas gracias

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    El 'that' es opcional en ambos casos.
    Por otro lado, puedes usar tanto presente como futuro en la subordinada.
    FAVSTA DIES TIBI ILLVCEAT

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Agró View Post
    El 'that' es opcional en ambos casos.
    Por otro lado, puedes usar tanto presente como futuro en la subordinada.
    De acuerdo. Yo diría "I hope you find your money" y " I hope you'll [you will] find your money". Son más o menos intercambiables. Ambas oraciones se orientan hacia el futuro. Me imagino que la primera sería más frecuente que la segunda, y que la ausencia de 'that' sería más frecuente que su presencia

    Saludos
    So much to learn, so little time!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    "to hope" seems unusual in this respect. It somehow contains the idea of futurity.

    If we concentrate only on the future the following shows how exceptional it is:

    I hope you find it.
    I hope that you find it.
    I hope you'll find it.
    I hope that you'll find it.

    I think you find it. X
    I think that you find it. X
    I think you'll find it.
    I think that you'll find it.

    I anticipate you find it. X
    I anticipate that you find it. X
    I anticipate you'll find it. ?
    I anticipate that you'll find it.

    I'm not aware of any other words that allow the same usage as 'to hope'. Can anyone think of such a verb?
    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Interesting. We could change things a bit and say: It is my [hope, wish, desire, dream] that you find the money. It is my hope, wish, desire, dream] that you'll find the money. At the moment, I can't think of another verb that works just like 'hope' in this context, but I'll bet there is one!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by donbill View Post
    Interesting. We could change things a bit and say: It is my [hope, wish, desire, dream] that you find the money. It is my hope, wish, desire, dream] that you'll find the money. At the moment, I can't think of another verb that works just like 'hope' in this context, but I'll bet there is one!

    Saludos
    Also "It is possible (that) you (will) find the money."

    As for another verb, there's the fortune teller's "see": "I see (in my crystal ball) that you (will) find the money."

    All these constructions also work for things in past tense (indicative of course): "It is my hope/wish/desire/dream" / "It is possible" / "I see (in my crystal ball)" that you found the money. And they work with past tense in the main clause: "It was ..." / "I hoped" / "I saw (in my crystal ball)" that you found/find/will find the money.

    There is no subjunctive or backshifting of tenses with "I hope" or any of these other options. The idea behind "I hope" is that we hope for, and "see", a possible reality, not a counterfactual or dubious situation.

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Forero View Post
    ..."I see (in my crystal ball) that you (will) find the money."...
    I'm not convinced. This seems equivalent to "I see you finding the money (right now)"

    The fortune teller is watching the action happening at the time of speaking. It's an internal movie. The fact that it also happens to be a prediction doesn't place the action in the future.

    It means "I see you doing X now and I predict that my vision will come to pass in reality."
    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Hi, Biffo, I think there is a way to say "I think you find..." Suppose a friend of mine found an article cut out of a newspaper or a magazine and he really liked the author's ideas. He might say to me "Where do I find more articles by this author?" I might then answer "I think you find his columns every week in Magazine X." Un saludo.

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by echinocereus View Post
    ..."I think you find his columns every week in Magazine X." Un saludo.
    Yes but that is the habitual sense. "I think you [usually/always] find his columns...". I'm talking specifically about the future.
    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Sorry. You're quite right, Biffo. I've been trying to think of a verb that will work like "hope," even checked with a friend who is also a lover of language. No other verb springs to mind. "Hope" may be unique in allowing a following verb in present tense to imply futurity.

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    What do you think of the verb bet?

    I bet that you find it.
    I bet you will find it.
    I bet you find it.
    Por favor, corrija mis errores.

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Yes! Ailurophile Abb1025, "bet" will certainly work like "hope."

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by abb1025 View Post
    What do you think of the verb bet?

    I bet that you find it.
    I bet you will find it.
    I bet you find it.


    So what is it about these verbs that makes them special?
    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Expect?

    I expect that you find it.
    I expect you will find it.
    I expect you find it.
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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Good one!

    Also suspect?

    But why are they special?
    That's the real question, isn't it?
    Por favor, corrija mis errores.

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Agró View Post
    Expect?

    I expect that you find it.
    I expect you will find it.
    I expect you find it.
    No, that doesn't work.
    "I expect you find it tomorrow."
    "I expect you to find it tomorrow."

    I don't know why.
    Quote Originally Posted by abb1025 View Post
    ...Also suspect?...
    I can't see how that works either.
    "I suspect you find it tomorrow"

    _______________________________________________________
    NOTE
    I suggest that the verb has to work with the word 'tomorrow'.
    I hope you find it tomorrow.
    I bet you find it tomorrow.
    Last edited by Biffo; 28th July 2013 at 8:58 PM.
    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    NOTE
    I've created a thread on this interesting subject on the English Only forum hope and bet - implied future

    If you think that, you have another think coming!

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    Re: hope+present simple/will - grammar

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffo View Post
    I'm not convinced. This seems equivalent to "I see you finding the money (right now)"
    or to "I see you finding the money (tomorrow)."
    The fortune teller is watching the action happening at the time of speaking. It's an internal movie. The fact that it also happens to be a prediction doesn't place the action in the future.

    It means "I see you doing X now and I predict that my vision will come to pass in reality."
    My theory is that hope also involves an internal movie being watched at the time indicated by the tense (e.g. hopes vs. hoped).

    With these "internal movies", present and future action can both be expressed with simple present, despite the inherent ambiguity (sometimes, but not always, resolved by the larger context):

    I hope he is where he is meant to be. (now, or tommorrow)
    I hope they smoke only in designated areas. (always, or when they go out to eat tomorrow)

    This is the same ambiguity that happens with modals:

    He may be where he is meant to be. (now, or tomorrow)
    They may smoke only in designated areas. (always, or when they go out to eat tomorrow)

    ... and with all those "I saw"s in the book of Revelation/Apocalysis.

    Expect and anticipate do imply futurity (as opposed to internal movies), and that is why they sound strange with simple present. I have certainly heard expect used with simple present, but I have assumed the speaker really meant "suspect" or "speculate".

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