Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Native language
    USA, English
    Age
    26
    Posts
    52

    O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Não entendo por que o infinitivo pessoal é preciso. Me parece que pode usar o subjuntivo para dizer a mesma coisa, né?

    Por exemplo:
    "É melhor nós irmos embora" = "É melhor que nós vamos embora" (presente do subjuntivo)

    "Foi melhor eles terem voltado cedo" = "Foi melhor que eles tivessem voltado cedo" (imperfeito do subjuntivo)


    Eu não estou dizendo que não deveriamos usar o infinitivo pessoal- só que eu não entendo porque é preciso. Eu estou perguntando porque o subjuntivo me parece mais fácil do que o infinitivo pessoal. Talvez, se um falante nativo de ingles me pudesse dar um equivalente em ingles, me ajudaria a entender. Se vcs pudessem me ajudar, eu seria muito grato. Obrigado pela ajuda.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Não entendo por que o infinitivo pessoal é preciso.
    Não é "preciso", mas é como as pessoas falam.

    Quando os dois são possíveis, o subjuntivo soa excessivamente formal.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Me parece que pode usar o subjuntivo para dizer a mesma coisa, né?

    Por exemplo:
    "É melhor nós irmos embora" = "É melhor que nós vamos embora" (presente do subjuntivo)

    "Foi melhor eles terem voltado cedo" = "Foi melhor que eles tivessem tenham voltado cedo" (imperfeito pretérito do subjuntivo)
    Só que as frases da direita são mais formais.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Eu não estou dizendo que não deveriamos usar o infinitivo pessoal- só que eu não entendo porque é preciso. Eu estou perguntando porque o subjuntivo me parece mais fácil do que o infinitivo pessoal. Talvez, se um falante nativo de ingles me pudesse dar um equivalente em ingles, me ajudaria a entender. Se vcs pudessem me ajudar, eu seria muito grato. Obrigado pela ajuda.
    Depois de se habituar ao infinitivo pessoal, pode até começar a preferi-lo. Não tem tempos...
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Native language
    USA, English
    Posts
    3,808

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Não entendo por que o infinitivo pessoal é preciso. Me parece que pode usar o subjuntivo para dizer a mesma coisa, né?

    Por exemplo:
    "É melhor nós irmos embora" = "É melhor que nós vamos embora" (presente do subjuntivo)

    "Foi melhor eles terem voltado cedo" = "Foi melhor que eles tivessem voltado cedo" (imperfeito do subjuntivo)


    Eu não estou dizendo que não deveriamos usar o infinitivo pessoal- só que eu não entendo porque é preciso. Eu estou perguntando porque o subjuntivo me parece mais fácil do que o infinitivo pessoal. Talvez, se um falante nativo de ingles me pudesse dar um equivalente em ingles, me ajudaria a entender. Se vcs pudessem me ajudar, eu seria muito grato. Obrigado pela ajuda.
    I'm with Outsider. The personal infinitive is a fact of life in Portuguese, like it or not. Native speakers usually prefer it to the subjunctive. And that's that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Native language
    Portugal . Portuguese
    Posts
    2,831

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Last edited by spielenschach; 29th August 2007 at 10:54 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Talvez, se um falante nativo de ingles me pudesse dar um equivalente em ingles, me ajudaria a entender.
    I find this extra mood in Portuguese rather taxing I always think I sound retarded when I use it.

    From what I learned there is no proper English equivalent, but you just learn it as 'possessive pronoun + -ing'.

    Eg: ' é melhor nos irmos' = 'our going is better'. Granted, an awful translation, but it helps me to understand the principle. Hope that was of help!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Native language
    Portugal, portuguese
    Posts
    1,749

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    'é melhor (nós) irmos' não poderia ser traduzido por 'we better go' ?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimec View Post
    'é melhor (nós) irmos' não poderia ser traduzido por 'we better go' ?
    Yes, I made an inaccurate translation to demonstrate the thinking behind translating personal infinitives into English.

    'We had better go' is better, but good effort!

    (I realise that may sound patronising...but where I live when someone does something really well you say 'good effort!', and it's a compliment, not being condescending!)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Native language
    Portugal, portuguese
    Posts
    1,749

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Thank you, ayupshiplad.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by ayupshiplad View Post
    I find this extra mood in Portuguese rather taxing I always think I sound retarded when I use it.
    It's not classified as a mood, just a special form of the infinitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayupshiplad View Post
    From what I learned there is no proper English equivalent, but you just learn it as 'possessive pronoun + -ing'.

    Eg: ' é melhor nós irmos' = 'our going is better'.
    A subjunctive or the normal infinitive often work, at least as a first attempt: "It's better that we go", "It's better for us to go" (?).
    Last edited by Outsider; 28th August 2007 at 10:34 PM.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    It's not classified as a mood, just a special form of the infinitive.

    A subjunctive or the normal infinitive often work, at least as a first attempt: "It's better that we go", "It's better for us to go" (?).

    My grammar book and my verb book call it 'the 4th mood- the personal mood'!!!

    Yes, the two examples you gave above would be understood, but that only works for certain phrases, as I recall (though of course, I cannot think of a sentence in which it doesn't work)! That's why I use the whole 'possessive pronoun + -ing' to understand the principle...but that's just me. I think it's also because my Portuguese friend says things like "I look forward to your coming" etc in English...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by ayupshiplad View Post
    My grammar book and my verb book call it 'the 4th mood- the personal mood'!!!
    Well, I won't report your book to the authorities, but that's definitely not standard terminology in Portuguese grammar.

    "Moods" are normally subdivided into tenses, but the personal infinitive is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayupshiplad View Post
    I think it's also because my Portuguese friend says things like "I look forward to your coming" etc in English...
    Seems like a personal quirk of his.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Native language
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Posts
    1,243

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    In Portuguese it's not regarded as a mood. It's only the "Personal Infinitive", which, is, by the way, unique to Portuguese! And I'm very proud of it. No other major romance language has it. That's why it can be difficult. But you, non-native speakers, are faced with a very distinctive feature among the romance languages, so enjoy it. Um pouco de história (em português).
    Docendo discimus - Ensinando aprendemos - Uczymy się ucząc innych - By teaching others we learn.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis555 View Post
    In Portuguese it's not regarded as a mood. It's only the "Personal Infinitive", which, is, by the way, unique to Portuguese! And I'm very proud of it. No other major romance language has it. That's why it can be difficult. But you, non-native speakers, are faced with a very distinctive feature among the romance languages, so enjoy it. Um pouco de história (em português).
    It's easy to enjoy it if you can use it...otherwise you just wish it would go away, to put it mildly!

    The whole mood thing...it's rather confusing. It's not just in the one book that I've seen that. I will ask my Latin teacher! He is the font of all knowledge !

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Native language
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Posts
    1,243

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Well, it's not that difficult, is it?
    The idea behind it is: For X to Y.
    X is a noun or a pronoun, they can be omitted (precisely because Y has the endings in Portuguese); Y is a verb.
    Some examples from this site:
    1.É melhor [para]* nós irmos embora já. (=It's better for us to go away right now).
    2.Farei o possível para as crianças aqui terem o conforto que tinham em casa.
    (= I'll do my best for the children to have the comfort that they had at home).
    3.Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa. (=I've mentioned the intention for us[=related to us, our intention] to sell[=of selling] the house). This is a tricky one, but again the idea is, it's for someone to do something.

    *Can be omitted. Actually even the "nós" can be omitted, but no problem because it's clear with "-mos".
    Docendo discimus - Ensinando aprendemos - Uczymy się ucząc innych - By teaching others we learn.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis555 View Post
    Well, it's not that difficult, is it?
    The idea behind it is: For X to Y.
    X is a noun or a pronoun, they can be omitted (precisely because Y has the endings in Portuguese); Y is a verb.
    Some examples from this site:
    1.É melhor [para]* nós irmos embora já. (=It's better for us to go away right now).
    2.Farei o possível para as crianças aqui terem o conforto que tinham em casa.
    (= I'll do my best for the children to have the comfort that they had at home).
    3.Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa. (=I've mentioned the intention for us[=related to us, our intention] to sell[=of selling] the house). This is a tricky one, but again the idea is, it's for someone to do something.

    *Can be omitted. Actually even the "nós" can be omitted, but no problem because it's clear with "-mos".
    Ah, it's so easy for a native speaker to say that it's easy to use The problem is, I think, that using such a structure is so different from English. In the last example, I would think of saying that as "I've mentioned that we had the intention of selling the house". So you need real 'Sprachgefuehl' ('language feeling') to be able to use the personal infinitive, in my humble opinion.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cracóvia, Polônia
    Native language
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Posts
    1,243

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by ayupshiplad View Post
    In the last example, I would think of saying that as "I've mentioned [-that we had]the intention of selling[+mos] the house".
    = Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa.

    Yes, you have to do some joggling. When rendering this example into Portuguese just use "mos" instead of "that we had", and stick this "mos" to the verb!
    So it's economical, innit?
    Docendo discimus - Ensinando aprendemos - Uczymy się ucząc innych - By teaching others we learn.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wien, Austria
    Native language
    german Austria
    Posts
    753

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierhick317 View Post
    Por exemplo:
    "É melhor nós irmos embora" = "É melhor que nós vamos embora" (presente do subjuntivo)
    só um detalhe mesquinho: "vamos" é conjunctivo ?
    DER WEG IST DAS ZIEL

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    É conjuntivo e indicativo também.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wien, Austria
    Native language
    german Austria
    Posts
    753

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    É conjuntivo e indicativo também.
    Que vergonha não saber isso . Será por usar demais o infinitivo pessoal
    DER WEG IST DAS ZIEL

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Native language
    Scotland, English
    Age
    25
    Posts
    642

    Re: O uso do infinitivo pessoal

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis555 View Post
    = Mencionei a intenção de vendermos a casa.

    Yes, you have to do some joggling. When rendering this example into Portuguese just use "mos" instead of "that we had", and stick this "mos" to the verb!
    So it's economical, innit?
    It's incredibly economical! Though I do hope you know the only reason I'm agreeing with you is because you said 'innit'!

    p.s (I think you meant juggling, not joggling!)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •