Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35

Thread: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    I am opening this thread to continue discussion on the usage of informal verb forms with 'Aap' in Semi-Formal situations.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1044329

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Blackburn, England
    Native language
    English, Gujarati & Urdu
    Age
    27
    Posts
    2,751

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    What's the difference between "aap yahaa bethe" and "aap yahaa bethiye", if any?
    It's always OK in the end. If it's not OK, then it's not the end.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    In a teapot
    Native language
    English USA
    Posts
    1,344

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    I asked about the aap yahaan baithe(n) thing before, too...

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=888809

    Is this form used in India at all? Is it taught in school in Pakistan in Urdu grammar courses?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    You will not hear this very often in India, at least in the Non-Urdu region, but we'll understand it and won't find it very unnatural.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Karachi
    Native language
    Urdu
    Posts
    2,097

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    This mal-conjugation is gramatically totally wrong and is pretty often used by the anglophyllic elite in Pakistan. I find it very offensive, and I'm not alone.

    In Urdu there are 4 registers of formality, two of them using aap.

    1 - aap yahaaN tashreef rakhiyay (bathna is impolite in formal conflab)

    2 - aap yahaaN tashreef rakhaiN

    3 - tum yahaaN baitho

    4 - too yahaaN/id'har baith

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Hmm, I can see it being frowned upon even in my place if the situation warrants a proper formal speech. Urdu has much more adab and I think the mal-conjugation will be considered very rude.

    However, the usage is very very common in Colloquial Hindi. I would be mildly surprised if someone who is just a year younger than me says Kya Aap Aaenge? At the same time, I will take offence if he says Tum Aaoge Kya or Tu aaega kya? both of which will be rude. The most common socially heard sentence in this scenario would be Aap Aaoge kya?

    All this does not mean that I am saying this form is grammatically correct. But, linguistic purism should not blind us from acknowledging a widespread form of speech.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Karachi
    Native language
    Urdu
    Posts
    2,097

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    The registers 1- and 2- should probably be merged into 1-a- and 1-b- because they both use aap, and differ only when talking with respect to a complete stanger or a familiar person respectively.

    Illuminatus, Aap Aaoge kya? is wrong, there's no doubt about that. but people seem to have invented it to manage formality and personal familiarity. I've always heard my mom say 'aap aayiay gaa?', not even 'aap aaiN gay kya'. Putting kya at the end is pretty informal, putting it in the beginning is proper and not saying it at all (as in the implied question 'aap aayiay gaa?') is somehow super polite!

    We never even say 'maiN' referring to I, but 'hum' eg 'hum aaiN gay' as in plural. I gave up talking like this because some bully at school laughed at it. Looking back, I shoudn't have.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    It depends on the Social Scenario then. The use of Hum instead of I is characteristic of UP and Bihar and sounds odd to me too. Though I don't use it myself and find it irritating when someone uses it, I acknowledge it as a form of speech used by millions (and it can, therefore, safely be called a dialect, if nothing else).

    Likewise, I have been hearing the conjugation switch for years in the place I grew up, and so I find it acceptable to use in specific scenarios, just like millions use Hum.

    Yeah, I agree that putting Kya at the end is informal, but then, that was my point.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    غریب الوطن
    Native language
    Am. English
    Posts
    6,057

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    The combination of the Tum form with Aap is very common in north India, and you'll encounter it frequently in Delhi and Panjab. But it's nonstandard and so I expect school instruction would not promulgate anything but modern standard Hindi/Urdu.

    I never heard it in Lucknow, however, and so I really had to take care to not use it.
    Correccions en qualsevol idioma sempre són agraïdes.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Plato's Republic
    Native language
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Posts
    5,570

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    I think I’d agree with BelligerentPacifist’s suggestion of merging registers 1 and 2. All the same we’d still be left with 4 registers as the really, really polite way here would be to say: Aap yahaaN tashreef farmaa hooNآپ یہاں تشریف فرما ہوں This is reaching the very heights of Urdu adab - the stratosphere and beyond!Regarding the use of Aap + informal Aao etc. is, as we all agree, grammatically incorrect but, again as we all know, is used widely esp. in Punjab, but elsewhere too e.g. NWFP. When I first encountered it in my travels, I was taken slightly aback but got used to it. Often the accompanying body language is very important too and that made all the difference. The body language and gestures often were very very polite. So I didn’t mind.
    Utlub al-‘ilm min al-mahd ilal-laHd Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave (Ali ibn Abi Talib)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Native language
    Norwegian
    Posts
    704

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    As a non-native speaker, will it be considered "too polite" (=stiff or pretentious) if I use the aap form (with the proper conjugation according to aap, and not the merged colloquial form as mentioned here) with people who are my age or younger than myself? Should I rather use the "tum" form? Can the use of "aap" create a sort of gap between myself and people my age in social settings?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    It is perfectly fine to use tum with people who are younger than you (unless your relation is of some other type, say Boss-Subordinate etc.)

    You don't need to use aap with them. As I said, the merged conjugation of aap is usually a characteristic of a social-setting where tum/tu would be rude but where the gap isn't enough to warrant a pure aap.

    For instance, my juniors in college address me using aap and the merged conjugation, as you call it. I would find it rude if they used tu/tum with me (and I would tell them as much). Using pure aap forms would be weird only if a person who generally addressed me using the merged form suddenly started using the pure form. It would sound sarcastic then. But I have juniors who always use the pure form with me, so it's not unusual with them.

    In general, the pure form is never considered pretentious.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Native language
    Norwegian
    Posts
    704

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Ok, I see. Thank you. You mostly talked about people younger than me, but what about people my age (the same age or just a couple of years older)? Would the same apply (it being preffered to say "tum")?

    Sometimes I feel it is easier to use aap with everyone, because it´s hard grammatically to switch between tum and aap. I don´t think I will use the merged construct as I´m having a hard time enough as it is with my poor Urdu.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Mumbai, India
    Native language
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Posts
    892

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    It depends on the kind of relationship you have. For situations where there is a clear hierarchy (say in schools/colleges/jobs), you'd say Aap to people who're older. If they are good friends and there isn't any hierarchy, tum is OK.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Native language
    Norwegian
    Posts
    704

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Thanks for the clarification!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Native language
    Urdu
    Posts
    1,894

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Quote Originally Posted by Illuminatus View Post
    It depends on the kind of relationship you have. For situations where there is a clear hierarchy (say in schools/colleges/jobs), you'd say Aap to people who're older. If they are good friends and there isn't any hierarchy, tum is OK.
    Something that I find funny is when you first meet someone your own age, say in college, or a new town, and you address him as aap. Somewhere along the line, if you end up being friends, that changes to tum. And it's amusing to note the transitional period where you'll start saying tum, but for very direct questions or statements you'll still say aap.

    However, I've seen that many people stick to aap even with very close friends, so maybe it does not convey that formality for them and is just a mark of polite speech.

    Another thing I find funny is how sometimes parents even scold their young kids saying aap, and speak using register 1 above. Of course, it is just perception. I would find aap a little funny there, while they would find tum plain rude.

    Yet another amusing situation is when two brothers hang out with the same set of friends and address the friends as even tu because that's how their friends speak to each other, yet the brothers, when addressing each other, say aap, even in the same conversation, because that's how they've been taught to speak at home.

    It's all good!
    Last edited by Abu Talha; 3rd January 2012 at 8:47 PM. Reason: clarification

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Native language
    Urdu
    Posts
    1,894

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Quote Originally Posted by Illuminatus View Post
    However, the usage is very very common in Colloquial Hindi. I would be mildly surprised if someone who is just a year younger than me says Kya Aap Aaenge? At the same time, I will take offence if he says Tum Aaoge Kya or Tu aaega kya? both of which will be rude. The most common socially heard sentence in this scenario would be Aap Aaoge kya?
    I agree with this because I have often noted this myself. How strange that a language with already four registers feels the need for yet another! With no research, and just musing, I might be bold enough to say that this may be because registers 3 and 4 are increasingly being perceived as impolite in all settings. So a new one is needed to take their place.
    Last edited by Abu Talha; 3rd January 2012 at 8:57 PM. Reason: grammar

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Native language
    Norwegian
    Posts
    704

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Well, to me, the usage of "aap" to children is not that strange. I was told that many parents speak this way to their own children from a young age to make sure the children learns how to speak polite at a very early age.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Native language
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Posts
    289

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    Quote Originally Posted by Illuminatus View Post
    It depends on the Social Scenario then. The use of Hum instead of I is characteristic of UP and Bihar and sounds odd to me too. Though I don't use it myself and find it irritating when someone uses it, I acknowledge it as a form of speech used by millions (and it can, therefore, safely be called a dialect, if nothing else).
    Seems like a really old thread, but what the heck, I'll post a comment anyway. One interesting thing about the Bihari lehja is this:

    - Ham ne tum se kaha tha. - STANDARD
    - Ham tum se kahe the. - BIHARI LEHJA
    - Ham ne tum se kahi thi. - (WEST?) UP LEHJA

    Actually it is a bit shocking that no ones done a proper dialect assessment and dictionary of these regional variances for such a vast language. I think it's because people are so hung-up on identity politics in the subcontinent, they don't have time to do things which would be considered normal in terms of linguistic assessment. I was recently looking at the Dictionary of American Regional English project (http://dare.wisc.edu/). Too bad we don't have anything like this for Hindi-Urdu or Punjabi. I was was looking at specific examples here (http://dare.wisc.edu/?q=node/163) and was quite jealous. How delicious it would be for the people on these boards to see this stuff for H/U/P and find unexpected words and sentence forms.
    Last edited by hindiurdu; 14th May 2012 at 7:48 AM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap'

    ^ I too go through moments of distress over our indifference for the need to preserve and record a wide array of disciplines which are ultimately linked to language and culture. There is so much diversity that if this is not recorded, whether we have Urdu and Hindi in mind or Punjabi or any other of our languages, whatever knowledge we possess in our minds will die with us. My grasp over language and cultural issues is a lot less than my parents' and my children's grasp is a great deal less than mine. I would like to name every bit of flora and fauna of the land but those who have the knowledge are either dead or will soon join those that are.

    If someone were to ask an elder from our village regarding its beginnings, they will no doubt exaggerate and put its age touching Raja Porus's times but I know of only one house which is possibly over a hundred years old. Everyone else has demolished the older buildings and built and rebuilt newer ones attempting to outdo one another. If I asked a youngster in my village what a "phalaa" is, I am 100% certain that he/she would not know what I am talking about. All the agricultural implements would normally be exhibited in a museum but with us, no one cares!

    I suppose when our stomachs are full, our life and property secure, dignity for all human beings irrespective of colour, race, religion, gender, disability, age and sexuality, only then will our minds be at ease to care for our language, culture and the physical and biological environment around us.
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 14th May 2012 at 9:51 AM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •