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Thread: Artificial Slavic languages

  1. #21
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    You are right that those words are not of slavic origin but what is most important in speech, debate and in language after all ?
    Each other understanding, regardless you use any words from any languages. If the Slavs will understand any foreign or adopted word from any language, I think, it will meet the goal of what is expected from the language.

  2. #22
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Athaulf View Post
    And guess what -- a Croatian or Serbian reader would understand this sentence as saying that it's her favorite dress, not the most expensive one. There's just too many false friends to allow for any degree of precision in a text that's supposed to be readable by all Slavs. Just imagine driving directions in Slovio that are supposed to be read by some people for whom pravo means forward, and others for whom the same word means right.

    As for the idea of word reduplication so as to cover all possibilities, I don't see the end product as any more appealing than simply providing a translation into all relevant languages.

    By the way, could you please provide a translation of the above sentence into Slovak? I'm really curious how it would compare to the versions above.
    *****************

    "To es nai lubime halina-platie vo taj almar-s'kafa" - this is the most favourite dress in her closet.

    " To es nai drage halina-platie vo taj almar-s'kafa ". - this is the most expensive dress in her closet.

  3. #23
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    English: This is the most expensive dress in her closet.
    Croatian: Ovo je najskuplja haljina u njenom ormaru.
    Russian: Это самое дорогое платье в её шкафу.
    ====
    Slovio:
    Tut odev es naidragju v onai garderob.
    Slovio (my dialect):
    To es naidragju odev vo jej garderoba

  4. #24
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeniusx View Post

    Slovio:
    Tut odev es naidragju v onai garderob.
    Slovio (my dialect):
    To es naidragju odev vo jej garderoba
    Either way, the sentence is doomed to be misunderstood by most South Slavs, who will interpret naidragju as favorite, and definitely not suggesting most expensive at all. Not to mention that odev will be interpreted as meaning suit or clothes in general, not dress in particular, and garderoba will likely be interpreted as the abstract notion of clothing that is in someone's possession, not a closet as a physical object. Oh, and onai will be understood as that, not her.

    Such partly wrong, partly imprecise understanding is more or less equivalent to what happens when a typical Croatian, Bosnian, or Serbian speaker reads standard Slovak without prior study, or standard Russian after having learned only its alphabet. Thus, I don't see much improvement over the basic inter-Slavic intelligibility with Slovio.

  5. #25
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolovaj_Mataj View Post
    Btw, шкаф means closet in Russian? Škaf in Slovene is a wooden pail (or das Schaff in German).
    In (folkish) Croatian, škaf also means a bucket or wash-bowl, though not necessarily wooden. There's an immense number of such false friends between Slavic words for household items, which probably makes Slovio work pretty badly for discussion of such things.

  6. #26
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    I think the most difficult problem will be unifying all the "false friends" meanings into just one word with just one meaning for all the Slavs.

  7. #27
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    The so called false friend you will find everywhere, even in only one language!
    They are the salt of any language.
    An inter-Slavic language has to be as simple as possible to be learned, but also as rich in the way of expression as any other Slavic tongue.

  8. #28
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    What is richness of a language ? Is it having several words for the same meaning ? Why ? Just because to be interesting or boasting off that our language has got the largest vocabulary in the world (as it is with English where we have 3 - or more words for the same meaning inherited from Latin, German, French and sometimes even from Keltic languages ?
    Is it the aim of the functioning of a language ?
    Or just for simple each other understanding among the people.

  9. #29
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Grosvenor1 View Post
    I have taken a look at websites about Slovio. It looks interesting and even workable, though artificial languages always have problems establishing themselves...
    Sorry ,but I am afraid that you are not correct here. There some famous artificial languages which become quite popular, e.g. German (Hochdeutsch).

    In fact Pan Hucxko did do something similar like Herr Martin Luther.

    Eugeniusx

  10. #30
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeniusx View Post
    Sorry ,but I am afraid that you are not correct here. There some famous artificial languages which become quite popular, e.g. German (Hochdeutsch).

    In fact Pan Hucxko did do something similar like Herr Martin Luther.

    Eugeniusx
    Hochdeutsch is artificial, but no more than any other standard language. It had its roots in the language used by the Saxon chancellery, which was acceptable on a relatively wide basis in Germany.

    By artificial language, I mean something totally invented by one person, like Esperanto.

  11. #31
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeniusx View Post
    Sorry ,but I am afraid that you are not correct here. There some famous artificial languages which become quite popular, e.g. German (Hochdeutsch).

    In fact Pan Hucxko did do something similar like Herr Martin Luther.
    Luther didn't invent much of the language he wrote in. High German developed gradually during the late Middle Ages and early modern age in a pretty decentralized and spontaneous way, as more and more need for communication between regions developed (the process was largely helped by the demise of the Hanseatic League, whose lingua franca was Low German). Luther's work was merely one of the factors that contributed in its spread (admittedly, a pretty important one).

    In an important way, virtually all standard languages are artificial creations, but all of them (as far as I know) are based either on some regional dialect (e.g. Castilian) or some spontaneously developed high-register standard (e.g. High German). None of them were created largely from scratch by the work of one individual or small group, like Slovio or Interlingua.

  12. #32
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    All standard languages are to some extent artificial, in that they may be influenced and even up to a point created by academics and education systems. Literary and standard Czech, for example, is in large part a 19th century creation, the form of speech sometimes called "Spoken Prague Czech" is rather different from it and more natural, in addition to having more German loanwords.

    Is there a thread devoted to discussion of Spoken Prague Czech?

  13. #33
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Ioan View Post
    If the Slavs will understand any foreign or adopted word from any language, I think, it will meet the goal of what is expected from the language.
    Hmm... a language all Slavs can understand. I think the answer is, or soon will be, English.

  14. #34
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    At first I thought, that slovio will be interesting project, and I even started to teach myself (just a bit ) Problem with slovio is, that it's quite ugly and unnatural, and not so easy to read at all, if you haven't learned it. Grammar was based on esperanto, not on any slavic language. Much words are very strange, for example knig (book), din (one), jazika (language). I've read, that most words are taking from russian, so that can explain why slovio is not popular in Poland.

    I've found another language, that is much better for communication between Slavic people. Have you heard of slovianski? Polish wikipedia has article about it, and now the czech one too (since yesterday ) Here you have a piece of text from the website of slovianski:

    "Vitame vas do stronici Slovian­skogo, slovjanski medžujazik iztvoreni v gode 2006. Slovianski jazik može bit' mnogo upotrebimi dlja libo-kogo, ktori bi hotel adresovat' celi slovjanski svet posredstvom vebsajtov, forov, spisov e-majlskih, i.t.d., bez potrebo­vanja prevodit' tekst v rozlične jaziki. Znanje togo jazika umožlivi človeku bit' rozumemi dlja libo-ktorogo govo­ritelja slovjanskogo jazika i rozumet' vjačej než tol'ko osnovu teksta v libo-ktorom slovjanskom jazike."

    Still looks a bit strange to me, but much more understandable as for me, than slovio. Do others can understand it too?

    Kasia

  15. #35
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    I do, though no more than Polish or Russian itself. So why trying at all? Having learnt Russian at school (meeting the minimal requirements, that is) and taking an elementary interest into the languages of the neighbouring countries (skimming through an article or two in the local newspaper) has endowed me with this superpower. Attaining it did not take much more than four weeks of my lifetime (about an average amount of time spent annually on the phone these days) and it used to be the most commonplace skill in the Slavic world as late as in the early 1900's. So do we really have to construct an altogether new tongue? And do we really have to LEARN IT, in the first place? I don't really get what the fuss is all about :-)

  16. #36
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Thank you Kasiam for the info on slovjanski. Perfectly understandable for me, a Bulgarian and Russian speaker. Have to agree with texpert though - it is much more fun to read a bit of a Slavic language that interests you and, hop! next thing you know is that you understand better and some of it lives happily in your head. With Czech, e.g., I had the pleasure of leafing through a Czech-Slovak translation of a Russian book on knots, "Namornicke uzly", which I bought in Bulgaria. Hrube ale ucinne as they may say in CZ (texpert, sorry for the rough Czech spelling )

  17. #37
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by kasiam View Post
    At first I thought, that slovio will be interesting project, and I even started to teach myself (just a bit ) Problem with slovio is, that it's quite ugly and unnatural, and not so easy to read at all, if you haven't learned it. Grammar was based on esperanto, not on any slavic language. Much words are very strange, for example knig (book), din (one), jazika (language). I've read, that most words are taking from russian, so that can explain why slovio is not popular in Poland.

    I've found another language, that is much better for communication between Slavic people. Have you heard of slovianski? Polish wikipedia has article about it, and now the czech one too (since yesterday ) Here you have a piece of text from the website of slovianski:

    "Vitame vas do stronici Slovian­skogo, slovjanski medžujazik iztvoreni v gode 2006. Slovianski jazik može bit' mnogo upotrebimi dlja libo-kogo, ktori bi hotel adresovat' celi slovjanski svet posredstvom vebsajtov, forov, spisov e-majlskih, i.t.d., bez potrebo­vanja prevodit' tekst v rozlične jaziki. Znanje togo jazika umožlivi človeku bit' rozumemi dlja libo-ktorogo govo­ritelja slovjanskogo jazika i rozumet' vjačej než tol'ko osnovu teksta v libo-ktorom slovjanskom jazike."

    Still looks a bit strange to me, but much more understandable as for me, than slovio. Do others can understand it too?

    Kasia

    Hm, I do understand most of it, but this is more or less the case with all other Slavic languages... OK, I have some more trouble with Czech, Polish and Russian, but more or less I don't see the point of this language. We all learn English after all.

  18. #38
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Naravno, ne potpuno svi uče engleski. I još više, ne svaki voli engleski - npr. ja ga znam, ali ga mrzim. Da bismo razumeli engleski, moramo da smo ga učili, i zato ne može da se smatra univerzalnim. Ja preferiram upotrebu nekog slovenskog jezika ovde (maternjeg ili drugog - sve zavisi od očekivanja o razumljivosti u konkretnoj diskusiji) zato što u većini slučaja je razumljivost relativno dobra i često velika preciznost nije tako važna - ja posebno dajem prednost blizosti (upotreba blizkog jezika "smanja distanciju") pre preciznosti komunikacije. Takođe mislim da nije potrebno da se izgradi takav "univerzalan slovenski jezik", jer takav jezik ne bi imalo više razumljivosti nego naturalni slovenski jezici.

  19. #39
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlin View Post
    Naravno, ne potpuno svi uče engleski. I još više, ne svaki voli engleski - npr. ja ga znam, ali ga mrzim. Da bismo razumeli engleski, moramo da smo ga učili, i zato ne može da se smatra univerzalnim. Ja preferiram upotrebu nekog slovenskog jezika ovde (maternjeg ili drugog - sve zavisi od očekivanja o razumljivosti u konkretnoj diskusiji) zato što u većini slučaja je razumljivost relativno dobra i često velika preciznost nije tako važna - ja posebno dajem prednost blizosti (upotreba blizkog jezika "smanja distanciju") pre preciznosti komunikacije. Takođe mislim da nije potrebno da se izgradi takav "univerzalan slovenski jezik", jer takav jezik ne bi imalo više razumljivosti nego naturalni slovenski jezici.
    well, it's not a matter of liking or disliking it, English is de facto an international lingua franca.

    and one slavic language would also be a very panslavist achievement - i don't otherwise see the point of it - why would slavs need to communicate between each other more than with other nations.

  20. #40
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Slovio - an artificial Slavic language

    Quote Originally Posted by Jana337 View Post
    A Czech reader wouldn't suspect that it is a Slavic language in the first place. Or maybe I am just tired.
    Hahaha! right.. i'm definitely not tired, but still don't understand a word.. Slovio seems not to be working for Czech speakers...

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