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Thread: Artificial Slavic languages

  1. #41
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mishe View Post
    and one slavic language would also be a very panslavist achievement - i don't otherwise see the point of it - why would slavs need to communicate between each other more than with other nations.
    In fact, we don't need to communicate with other Slavs more than with other nations. Besides occasionally using BSC (actively or passively), an average Slovene speaker rarely needs to communicate in any other Slavic language. I don't think it's much different for other Slavs, we all seem to be happily tucked away in our own little corners and there seems to be little need to connect more than we already are or little interest to do so (IMO).

    Besides, one Slavic language would take away all the fun of false friends and communication with mimics and hands.

  2. #42
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by Mishe View Post
    Hm, I do understand most of it, but this is more or less the case with all other Slavic languages... OK, I have some more trouble with Czech, Polish and Russian, but more or less I don't see the point of this language. We all learn English after all.
    No, we don't, that's the point. Here in Poland all young people learn english THEORETICALLY. But do they know it? Most people older than 40 cannot speak a word in it, and even most young people speak it badly or not at all. They would be able to understand the basics of a language, which is similar to their own language, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mishe View Post
    and one slavic language would also be a very panslavist achievement - i don't otherwise see the point of it - why would slavs need to communicate between each other more than with other nations.
    Of course, they don't. So if you go to Germany or Italy or France, slovio or slovianski won't help you. But if you go to Poland or Ukraine, then don't count on english too much.

  3. #43
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Я не знаю столь много ли нам нужен "нейтральный" искусственный славянский язык для межславянского общения. По-моемурусский язык совсем годится для международного общения в славянских государствах, потому что:
    1. Есть традиции его изучать в Центральной и Восточной Европе (хотя многим это было вынужденным и поэтому хотели перервать традицию после политических перемен 1990-х).
    2. На этом языке есть богатая литература, а кроме того он самый большой славянский язык по числу говорящих на нем.
    Я не пытаюсь промовировать русский язык, а только хочу показать, что, может быть лучше использовать возможности существующих естественных языков для международного общения вместо пытаться творить искусственные; а кроме того не слудует путать отношение к России с отношением к русскому языку. В разных частях мира употреблялись и употребляются языки других влиятельных государств для интернационального общения (английский, французский и т. д.), хотя, разумеется, далеко не все имеют позитивное отношение к этим "мировым силам" - Великобритания, США и т. д. В конечном итоге, я не считаю политическая и культурная нейтральность искусственного языка значительным преимуществом с чисто практической точки зрения, и наверное лучше ослоняться на то, что естественные языки могут нам дать вместо руководствоваться "голым энтусиазмом" малобройных "болельщиков" искусственных языков. А также не маловажно то, что русский язык находится в близком родстве с остальными славянскими языками и поэтому взаимопонятен с ним в некоторой степени и не так трудно выучить его.

  4. #44
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Ja ne znaju stol mnogo li nam nužen "nejtralnyj" iskusstvennyj slovanskij jazyk dlja mežslovanskogo obštenija. Po-mojemurusskij jazyk sovsem goditsja dlja meždunarodnogo obštenija v slovanskich gosudarstvach, potomu co:
    1. Esť tradiciji ego izučať v Centralnoj i Vostočnoj Evrope (chotja mnogim eto bylo vynuždennym i pojetomu choteli perervať tradiciju posle političeskich peremen 1990-ch).
    2. Na etom jazyke esť bogataja literatura, a krome togo on samyj bolšoj slovanskij jazyk po čislu govorjaštich na nem.
    Ja ne pytajus promovirovať russkij jazyk, a tolko choču pokazať, co, možet byť lučše ispolzovať vozmožnosti suštestvujuštich estestvennych jazykov dlja meždunarodnogo obštenija vmesto pytaťsja tvoriť iskusstvennyje; a krome togo ne sludujet putať otnošenije k Rossiji s otnošenijem k russkomu jazyku. V raznych častjach mira upotrebljalis i upotrebljajutsja jazyki drugich vlijatelnych gosudarstv dlja internacijonalnogo obštenija (anglijskij, francuzskij i t. d.), chotja, razumejetsja, daleko ne vse imejut pozitivnoje otnošenije k etim "mirovym silam" - Velikobritanija, SŠA i t. d. V konečnom itoge, ja ne sčitaju političeskaja i kulturnaja nejtralnosť iskusstvennogo jazyka značitelnym prejimuštestvom s čisto praktičeskoj točki zrenija, i navernoje lučše oslonjaťsja na to, co estestvennyje jazyki mogut nam dať vmesto rukovodstvovaťsja "golym entusijazmom" malobrojnych "bolelštikov" iskusstvennych jazykov. A takže ne malovažno to, co russkij jazyk nachoditsja v blizkom rodstve s ostalnymi slovanskimi jazykami i pojetomu vzajimoponjaten s nim v nekotoroj stepeni i ne tak trudno vyjučiť ego.


    just for better understanding for those, who have headache to read it in cyrilic.

    I would say, why not, but russian leanguage is not good choice, still for numerous people have negative conseguencies.

    Theoretically neutral slavic leanguage should be neutral as possible as could for all those who are interested.

    Russian.....1...dificullt phonetic system
    2...azbuka/cyrilic not suit for everyone,problem with western computers, etc.
    3...specific grammar like omitting verbs... be, have in 1-X.person etc. unlike others slavs leanguages.


    So, maybe I would recomended old church slavonic,that also can help for better understanding to the natural nowadays slavic leeanguages ( but still so much difficult that nobody will learn it so we will stay by English anyway,
    Last edited by nonik; 10th November 2010 at 10:18 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Nobody mentioned Novoslověnskij jazyk which is simplified OCS. It has even obtained a support from the EU.

    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....


    How do you understand it?

  6. #46
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by bibax View Post
    Nobody mentioned Novoslověnskij jazyk which is simplified OCS. It has even obtained a support from the EU.

    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?
    I understand it well probably because I'm Bulgarian and my native language is strongly affected by OCS.

  7. #47
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Nobody mentioned Novoslověnskij jazyk which is simplified OCS. It has even obtained a support from the EU.

    Yeah, I mentioned before, but than realised, it is against policy of this forum and it was deleted by moderators.
    It is not aloud to promote any particular artifical language in this forum.

    So, you would delete your sentence, sorry.

    But, I am not sure what about Old Church Slavonic, because acording some scholars, it is semi-artifical language too (there is a lot discussion about), created in purpose to spread christianity betwen slavs.
    Last edited by nonik; 10th November 2010 at 5:38 PM.

  8. #48
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    Odp: Artificial Slavic languages

    Just to clarify - discussion does not mean promotion. It certainly not prohibited to mention artificial Slavic languages (after all, this thread is about them)
    A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow

  9. #49
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    Re: Odp: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jana337 View Post
    Just to clarify - discussion does not mean promotion. It certainly not prohibited to mention artificial Slavic languages (after all, this thread is about them)

    just to be sure....what about writtings ?

  10. #50
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    I understand it well probably because I'm Bulgarian and my native language is strongly affected by OCS.

    Orlin......according to author, almost every slavs is able to understand.
    I tried it with my friends, strictly monolingual czech speakers, and they did understood very well except one word, which was meždu, but after while, they were able to figure out.
    Last edited by nonik; 10th November 2010 at 5:37 PM.

  11. #51
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Well, in Russian you can use imet' instead of u mena jest' if you feel like it and there's archaic yet existent copula paradigm (jesm', jesi, jest', jesmy, jeste, sut'), but if its political connotation is too strong for you, then there's the cultural problem. I mean, I feel that people prefer natural languages over constructed ones exactly because the former are connected to their culture and people, they have their own history and literature that make them ever so exciting to learn. And if you throw away Russian, you're mostly left only with Polish, and I hear even the natives have trouble with it and it's less then comprehensible for most Slavs. And then you look at the many Slavic languages and think: which one is better for everyone to understand? I can only guess it would be something like Slovak or Rusyn, and there you have the problem of learning them and finding literature in them and stuff, and you can't help but think: is it really worth the trouble? Isn't it easier to learn a constructed one if all you're after is communication? Slovianski, for example, is designed exactly for this purpose, with the words and grammar tailored to be understandable for the vast majority of us. But will it be as fun to learn and use as a natural language? I highly doubt.
    So what I'm trying to say is if you only need to communicate with the other Slavs, a constructed language is probably the way to go, but if it's more than that, you'll probably have to choose between the language of the commies and the language that isn't suitable for communication with other Slavs(not to mention you'll have to pronounce it yourself). And then there's English, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am I wrong?

  12. #52
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    And then there's English, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am I wrong? ..............................................................................................no, you are very right, english is very good option, except one BUT, it is suitable just for people who can write or speak english.

    Russian........again, very good option, I learn a bit myself.

    slovianski/novoslovianski.........I put it together, because the two teams are collaborate and working recently together.

    Novoslovianski was created in purpose of
    1-simplified old church slavonic (rewritting old slavonic cyrilic/hlaholic text into latinica in purpose exposed them more towards west slavs who don't know cyrilic, etc)
    2-to be a comunication tools, first hint, to be understood and understand other slavic leanguage before learning completely that language (flavourization, something like Interlingua). In this way, it is working very well.
    It is not meant to be just pure slavic esperanto.

    Slovianski.....I would say very good work, good chosen vocabulary which works for almost 90% of slavs speakers and in majority is based on living comon words, in this way, it also could be good tools for foreigners who have to deal with multi-slavs comunity and they dont have time to learn 10 or more slavs leanguages, they would just learn words which are understood by majority of all us.

    In conclusion, I would say, in some way both of them slovianski/novoslovianski could serve as a good comunication tools, as it is serving already.

    Of course, they are not able to serve as a full developed natural language and displace them, but they are able to serve in the same way as old church slavonic in the past.
    Last edited by nonik; 10th November 2010 at 5:39 PM.

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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by sobakus View Post
    and then there's english, and suddenly it's ideal in every aspect... Or am i wrong?
    Я считаю, что у большинства естественных языков есть политические коннотации, особенно ели это языки "мировых суперсил". Поэтому мне кажется, что английский наверное английский не подходит всем славянам: вероятно на Западных Балканах (т. е. в бывшей Югославии) далеко не все довольны интервенциями британской и американской политики в регионе (часто с существенным влиянием на события в течение последних лет 20), и, может быть, не все любят английский. Кроме того, английский язык не славянский и поэтому совершенно непонятен славофонам, которые его не учили.
    Наконец, думаю, что вряд ли существует универсальное решение проблемы, которое годилось бы для всех нескольких сотен миллионов человек, составлящих славофонский мир.
    Last edited by Orlin; 11th November 2010 at 9:00 AM.

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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Поэтому мне кажется, что английский наверное английский не подходит всем славянам: ........................Yes, the same with russians and others.

    не все любят английский. Кроме того, английский язык не славянский и поэтому совершенно непонятен славофонам, которые его не учили. ......................................yes, this is another problem.

    So, what is the best choice according to you ?

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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by nonik View Post
    So, what is the best choice according to you ?
    There is no best choice for everybody - for some one choise will be best, for others - another one. As I said, no universal solutions for such a big number of people exists.

  16. #56
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    As I said, no universal solutions for such a big number of people exists.

    There is never be any universal solutions.
    I just wanted to know you opinion, what is the best according you.
    According to me, the best solutions is english as the first language and than old church slavonic or its modifications towards novoslovianski.
    Why english?.......because of the world, economy, and so on.
    Why old church or novoslovienski.......because of the traditions, history, our culture and our languages.
    That is my opinion.
    Last edited by nonik; 11th November 2010 at 1:26 PM.

  17. #57
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Quote Originally Posted by bibax View Post
    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?
    I'm not sure how well I would understand the words in blue if I didn't know some Russian. And I still don't understand the words in red.

  18. #58
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    Novoslovienskij jazyk jest originalnij v tom, že jest izdielanij jako akademicka extrapolacia i modernizacia staroslovienskego i crkvenoslovienskego jazyka. Grammatika jego ne jest minimalno redukovana jako sut grammatiky prostiejših mežduslovienskih jazykov. Novoslovienskij jazyk jest podobnejšij živim slovienskim jazykom. Jest to jazyk bogatij, kojže imaje grammatiku i morfologiu identičnu ili blizko podobnu živim jazykom. (Jazyk imaje 7 padov vkupie s vokativom, jedninu, množinu i dvojinu, 6 glagolnih vremen, i.t.d.) No v rozlišenii ot živih jazykov ne imaje mnogo zakonov i zato ne jest težko porozumitielnij i učimij.

    Sample text:

    Naše selo.

    Iz vsih možnih idealnih miest, v kojihže žijut ljudi, najbolie ljubiu male selo, daleko ot šumnego grada, s jego maloj obštinoj. Ono ne imaje preplnieni bloky, samo male drvene budniky. Jest to proste i slične miesto, s žitieljami, ktorih lica sut rovno znajemi jako cviety v našem sadie. To jest zatvorenij sviet s nemnogo ljudiami, blizko s‘jednienimi jako mravky v mravkovej kupie, pčely v pčelnikie, ovcy v ovcej štalie, monahi v monastirie ili morjaki na korabie, ....

    How do you understand it?
    A Czech speaker without any knowledge of Slavic languages wouldn't certainly understand everything.

  19. #59
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    phospore....because it is not meant to be pure esperanto, you can understand every word and also because the autor is czech speaker it is flavourized more towards czech( how it hapened in old church slavonic).
    But he could check the words more carefuly according inter-slavic dictionary, for example insted korabli....lodki, barki whatewer.

    Some words you have to learn because they are taken directly from old church slavonic desprictions betwen 9-13 centrury, you can check them in dictionary which is on novoslovienski page. (now it is able just in czech-ns, but as i asked autor, it will be translated to serbian,russian,englich,etc.)

    Than some words you can check from inter-slavic dictionary.
    I did it for....prostij, podobnij and učimij-učiti and they are in level 1, which means recognisable for slavs majority speakers.

    for red words....jego----njega, ga
    obština......obec,selo, generaly people who lived there
    bloky.....houses,
    budniky.....small houses
    kupie.....skupština, kupa....mravkova kupa....dont know how to translate... maybe the place where ants(insect) lived

    But still for people who dont understand any english, it is more or less understandable, just to learn a few slavic words.
    Of course nothing is perfect.

  20. #60
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    Re: Artificial Slavic languages

    A Czech speaker without any knowledge of Slavic languages wouldn't certainly understand everything

    Yes, you are right, at least you have to learn a bit, like words koje, kojihže etc. which I think, on other hand, are not problem for south slavs

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