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Thread: Far fare qualcosa a qualcuno

  1. #1
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    Far fare qualcosa a qualcuno

    You could open a whole new thread for your question about far fare/farsi fare (or just far/farsi + infinito). It's a complicated construction (it was/is for me, I should say), and will generate a lot of input. Here's an example: lo farò fare a lui per te = I'll have him do that for you.
    on LSP's advice I am opening up a new thread to get to the bottom of this.

    far fare = to make to make ? I know it isn't but ahhh, this is going to annoy me so much now.

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    Re: far fare

    To make someone make/do..
    i.e.: I made him do the shopping for me; I'll make you make a mistake!
    ..e poi arriva ellie

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    Re: far fare

    Alfry gave me these great examples for farsi+infinito once, they really helped:

    lo farò fare a lui per te- I'll have him do that for you
    fatti dare una penna da Mark = try to make Mark give you a pen
    è difficile farsi amare dagli altri = it's difficult to make others love you
    mi sono fatto dare gli spiccioli da lei - I made her give me the change.
    That's an L (Lsp)

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    Re: far fare

    Oh that's so confusing. I'll tackle it line by line

    lo farò fare a lui per te- I'll have him do that for you


    the Io looks a lot like lo there.
    What part of this sentence represents "that"
    "I will make make to him for you"
    also curious about the order of the words?

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    Re: far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    Oh that's so confusing. I'll tackle it line by line

    lo farò fare a lui per te- I'll have him do that for you


    the Io looks a lot like lo there.
    What part of this sentence represents "that"
    "I will make make to him for you"
    also curious about the order of the words?
    It is confusing!

    But it is "L" (funny that should confuse you in a post of mine, since everyone mistakes me for Isp when it's Lsp)! The "lo" in this case is the "it" or "that" you're having him do for you. The "io" is implied in the "farò."
    That's an L (Lsp)

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    Re: far fare

    Erm,

    it I will make make to him for you
    [word re-order machine]
    I will make it make to him for you
    [common sense machine]
    I will make him make it for you
    [further one]
    I will make him do it for you
    [Italian politeness machine where "make" translates as "have done"]
    I will have him do it for you

    One question, as "it" / "lo" is so far at the end of the English sentence, why is it the first part of the Italian one?

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    Re: far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    One question, as "it" / "lo" is so far at the end of the English sentence, why is it the first part of the Italian one?
    I'm at a loss to explain this, but I'll take the opportunity to answer this and other comments you've made that also left me scratching my head at times. But it won't satisfy you, I'm afraid. The only explanation is that Italian is not a version of English spoken in Italy, it's a different language. English didn't come first and then they got it wrong when they invented the Italian version of it! There is no reason why the word at the beginning of an English sentence should also be at the beginning of an Italian one. When you first started learning, it was probably difficult to remember that Italian uses an article more often, or a pronoun less often than English, or that we don’t have formal and informal verb conjugations. Mai means ever and never, ospite means guest and host. The list of differences is longer than just why a word is at the beginning in English and at the end in Italian. It's not "annoying" or "backwards" or "convoluted." It's just different. Different rules, constructions, words, expressions...

    Sorry, that's the best explanation I can come up with.
    That's an L (Lsp)

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    Re: far fare

    Alex

    I gave you a few examples of this structure in this post:

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showp...75&postcount=5

    It is undoubtedly a difficult construction for English speakers. The best thing is to study lots of examples.

    The verb following "fare" can have an active or a passive meaning. In English it's obvious when it's passive since you use a past participle:

    Make her work harder = falla lavorare di più

    Have it (the car) fixed = falla riparare

    As if that weren't bad enough "fare" can mean both "make sb do sthg" and "let sb do sthg":

    Fallo studiare! = Make him study (persuade/force him to study)

    Dai! Fallo studiare! = Come on! Let him study (don't distract him)

    Intonation and context would dispel any ambiguity

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    Re: Far fare

    I understood most of your post surprisingly moodywop, but for this line :

    As if that weren't bad enough "fare" can mean both "make sb do sthg" and "let sb do sthg":

    ? what do the bold letters mean?

    The post, I understood, but it's fare fare, or far fare, what is it's "general" meaning?

    [Edit]
    Is it a good suggestion to (when I stumble upon these words together) to, instead of looking right into it's twp meanings that I know, to just take a relaxed look and see the words as if they could mean anything, and then on a context, try to come up with an equivilent set of words in English and then post it here and see if I'm close?

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    Re: Far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    As if that weren't bad enough "fare" can mean both "make sb do sthg" and "let sb do sthg":

    ? what do the bold letters mean?
    sb = somebody
    sthg = something

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    Re: Far fare

    Proverò...

    let him go! -> go (andare->imperative familiar form = va)
    so... far farlo va! [yes I did notice your use of double l's, but I don't understand them so I am working how I would do it and hope the double L is explained]

    let him go!
    far farlo va!

    ..again..

    have them send her a bottle of red wine
    "make them send (to her) a bottle of red wine"
    Far fa (checks about appending 'loro' to an infinitive / then remembers its a DOP and not a DP) Far farli (make them?) send (to) her, I know two verbs that mean "to send", the only one springing to my mind is mandare so I'll use that. Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco.

    Have them send her a bottle of red wine
    Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco

    One more I will attempt..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo è mandato (unsure about using è here, but I thought it might be needed for forming the past participle, but it's allready appended on the infinitive, so I'll put brackets around it) ufficio is masc sing so il mio is needed, and seeing as it's "to my" the contraction is al. dunque..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo (è) mandato al mio ufficio

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    Re: Far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    Proverò...

    let him go! -> go (andare->imperative familiar form = va)
    so... far farlo va! [yes I did notice your use of double l's, but I don't understand them so I am working how I would do it and hope the double L is explained]

    let him go!
    far farlo va!

    ..again..

    have them send her a bottle of red wine
    "make them send (to her) a bottle of red wine"
    Far fa (checks about appending 'loro' to an infinitive / then remembers its a DOP and not a DP) Far farli (make them?) send (to) her, I know two verbs that mean "to send", the only one springing to my mind is mandare so I'll use that. Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco.

    Have them send her a bottle of red wine
    Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco

    One more I will attempt..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo è mandato (unsure about using è here, but I thought it might be needed for forming the past participle, but it's allready appended on the infinitive, so I'll put brackets around it) ufficio is masc sing so il mio is needed, and seeing as it's "to my" the contraction is al. dunque..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo (è) mandato al mio ufficio
    Uhm... I'm afraid you didn't really understand...

    "Far fare" is an example of a more general rule:

    "Fare + infinitive"

    Which you can translate with the English

    "Have + objective"

    So if you have in English:
    Have Catherine make a good tea for me
    You can translate
    Fai fare a Catherine un buon the per me

    You can notice how the constuction is different:

    English = Have someone make (or do) something
    Italian = Far fare a qualcuno qualcosa

    Now, you can see that a rough word to word English translation sounds really odd: "Make make to someone something" but I hope you can now understand the logic behind it

    But naturally you are not limited to "Far fare" you can "Far mandare", "Far giocare", "Far comprare" and so on, the construction still remains and still keeps its logic, so in your examples:

    let him go!
    Fallo andare! (Fa (imperative=let) + lo (Him) andare (go); but "Lascialo andare" is more elegant )

    have them send her a bottle of red wine
    Falle mandare da loro una bottiglia di vino rosso (Fa (imperative) + le (to Her) mandare (send) da loro (from them) una bottiglia di vino rosso (a bottle of red wine) )

    And so on.

    I hope I have been helpful.
    Ciao.
    Ha una voglia strana in fondo al cuore e nemmeno lui lo sa
    Se sia paura o libertà, se sia paura oppure libertà.

  13. #13
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    Re: Far fare

    You have been extremely helpful!

    I thought Far Fare was, as I think I can pull a quote where I got confused...

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    far fare = to make to make ? I know it isn't but ahhh, this is going to annoy me so much now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellie
    To make someone make/do..
    i.e.: I made him do the shopping for me; I'll make you make a mistake!
    So from this I thought Far Fare meant "to make someone do something"
    I will have two more goes at this then..

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Far farlo scrivere una biografia di Beethoven

    Have her get me a coffee
    Far Farla mi prende un caffè

    ?

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    Re: Far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    You have been extremely helpful!

    I thought Far Fare was, as I think I can pull a quote where I got confused...





    So from this I thought Far Fare meant "to make someone do something"
    I will have two more goes at this then..

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Far farlo scrivere una biografia di Beethoven

    Have her get me a coffee
    Far Farla mi prende un caffè

    ?
    Hi, I thought I would attempt the same explanation Raphillon gave, but maybe seeing it explained more ways than one will help clarify it.

    Far fare is to make someone make/do, as ellie told you.
    But the second fare = make/do.
    If you substiture that with another infinitive you get a different formula.
    To make someone leave/Far (+ pronoun) andare.
    Make him leave/Fallo andare.
    Make him write/Fallo scrivere.
    Make Catherine make me tea.
    Fai fare a Catherine un tè per me.
    Hope it helps. I told you, this one is tough.
    That's an L (Lsp)

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    Re: Far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    You have been extremely helpful!

    I thought Far Fare was, as I think I can pull a quote where I got confused...





    So from this I thought Far Fare meant "to make someone do something"
    I will have two more goes at this then..

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Far farlo scrivere una biografia di Beethoven

    Have her get me a coffee
    Far Farla mi prende un caffè

    ?
    Alex, both your examples need only one "fare":

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Fargli scrivere una biografia di Behetoven (Far (to have) + gli (him) scrivere (write) una biografia di Behetoven (a biography of Beethoven) )

    instead:
    Have him make a biography of Behetoven
    Far fare a lui una biografia di Behetoven



    Have her get me a coffee
    Farle prendere un caffè per me

    instead:
    Heve her make a coffee for me
    Far fare a lei un caffè per me


    I'm sorry I'm not able to understand the best way to make you understand...



    Edit: Sorry, lsp, I didn't see your post, you got the rule, anyway
    Ha una voglia strana in fondo al cuore e nemmeno lui lo sa
    Se sia paura o libertà, se sia paura oppure libertà.

  16. #16
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    Re: Far fare

    spero che ti ho capito.

    Have her write him a letter
    Farla scrivergli una lettera

    Have her make dinner
    Far Fare a lei pranzo

    Have him look for Frank
    Farlo cerco Frank

    Have him make a talble and chairs
    Far Fare a lui un tavolo e sedie.

    Far(pronoun) + infinitive = Have Pronoun Do Verb ?
    Far Fare a (disjunctive pronoun) = Have Pronoun Make/Do?

    Please can someone or my attempts.

  17. #17
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    Re: Far fare

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    Have (fai in modo che) her (lei) write (scriva) him (a lui) a letter (una lettera) = Falle scrivere una lettera a lui
    Farla scrivergli una lettera

    Have (fai in modo che) her (lei) make (faccia/prepari) dinner (il pranzo) = Falle preparare il pranzo
    Far Fare a lei pranzo

    Have (fai in modo che) him (lui) look for (cerchi) Frank = Fagli cercare Frank
    Farlo cerco Frank

    Have (fai in modo che) him (lui) make (prepari) a table and chairs (un tavolo e delle sedie) = Fagli preparare un tavolo e delle sedie
    Far Fare a lui un tavolo e sedie.
    Try to read them this way. Does this help?

  18. #18
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    Re: Far fare

    Ughh I thought I had it then too.

    Okay a few clarifications, the objects taken here are indirect? as I can see, I was using direct. this "a lui/lei" thing seems to be big, I thought I could append the pronoun to the infinitive.

    Your Italian here :

    Originally Posted by Alex_Murphy
    Have (fai in modo che) her (lei) write (scriva) him (a lui) a letter (una lettera) = Falle scrivere una lettera a lui
    Farla scrivergli una lettera

    Have (fai in modo che) her (lei) make (faccia/prepari) dinner (il pranzo) = Falle preparare il pranzo
    Far Fare a lei pranzo

    Have (fai in modo che) him (lui) look for (cerchi) Frank = Fagli cercare Frank
    Farlo cerco Frank

    Have (fai in modo che) him (lui) make (prepari) a table and chairs (un tavolo e delle sedie) = Fagli preparare un tavolo e delle sedie
    Far Fare a lui un tavolo e sedie.
    Is very confusing, for the sake of the understanding of the Far Fare structure, in the next examples, I will try, try lol, can the only corrections be of the error in the structure and not the quality of the sentence because I keep getting thrown off thinking course thinking that all other corrections are affecting the Far Fare.

    Have him make a list
    Far fare

    Oh I'm too confused to even try, none of Alfry's corrections even contain Far Fare, I haven't got a clue what is going on.

    Have him make a list
    Far Fare a lui una lista


    or is it

    Far Fargli una lista?


    I think if we stick with this one example till it is perfect, then it will be easier for me, instead of attempting 5 that I'm not sure of.


  19. #19
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    Re: Far fare

    Alex, in this case, append the indirect object to the imperative.

    Fagli fare una lista.
    Fatti spiegare la grammatica italiana. (yes, the double t is correct)

    Jana
    Last edited by Jana337; 25th March 2006 at 7:34 PM.
    A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow

  20. #20
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    Re: Far fare

    Probably what is confusing you is that far fare are 2 identical verbs.

    The rule is general here.
    Far fare, far parlare, far preparare, far cercare and so on must abide by the same rule.

    Then,
    far fare a lui una lista = far+gli fare una lista

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