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Thread: Even though vs. Even if

  1. #41
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    Quote Originally Posted by brian8733 View Post
    @Janey:


    Honestly, it's a bad sentence all together, in my opinion.
    Here we agree completely!

    Quote Originally Posted by brian8733 View Post
    @Janey:

    A: You need to fire that lawyer.
    B: No. Even if he lost/did lose (= even though / despite the fact that he lost) this one case, he's still a damn good lawyer.
    Here I'd use 'even though / despite the fact' but not 'even if'. Using 'even if' adds uncertainty where none exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian8733 View Post
    A: How can you possibly be considering him for this case?!
    B: Because even if he lost (= even if he were to lose), it would still bring lots of publicity to our firm.
    Here I'd use 'even if he were to lose', but not 'even if'.

    As I said, that's the difference between BE and AE. The AE isn't incorrect, but it just doesn't sound right to my thoroughly English ears! And I gotta trust my own ears!

  2. #42
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    Since this discussion seems to have gotten completely away from a connection between Italian and English, perhaps discussing even if/even though usage would be better served in the EO forum?

    Elisabetta
    Va', pensiero, sull'ali dorate.

  3. #43
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    For the purpose of translation, I think it’s important to know the complete meaning and usage of ‘even if’, not just the BE version. Let’s take a specific example of standard usage, taken from a mainstream newspaper:

    “Life is sweet for 'Pav', even if he does leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some of his rivals.” (source)

    The context makes it clear that ‘even if’ means "despite the fact" (nonostante) rather than "despite the possibility that" (anche nel caso che). If you have doubt, please read the article. (We know with certainty that Pav has ticked off some of his rivals: “Many still have an axe to grind against Pav." This is not a hypothetical.) I realize that this usage of ‘even if’ sounds “completely wrong” to many BE ears and to some AE ones, too. But that does not change the fact that this is now considered standard usage in AE by The Oxford American Dictionary. I don’t think English learners should look at this sentence and others like it and think: “This is totally wrong!” It’s not (at least not in AE). Nor should they insist that ‘even if’ can mean only anche nel caso che, and can be used only with situations where there is uncertainty and doubt. If they do, this sentence would indeed seem strange, and it shouldn’t. It’s standard AE, even if it’s not acceptable BE.

  4. #44
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderment View Post
    “Life is sweet for 'Pav', even if he does leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some of his rivals.” (source)
    I consider this and the sentence about the President to be diplomatic.

    In the sentence with "even if ... does ...", the use of does tells us we do know.

  5. #45
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    I told you!! 20-30 years and you'll have forgotten the difference!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderment View Post
    For the purpose of translation, I think it’s important to know the complete meaning and usage of ‘even if’, not just the BE version. Let’s take a specific example of standard usage, taken from a mainstream newspaper:

    “Life is sweet for 'Pav', even if he does leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some of his rivals.” (source)

    The context makes it clear that ‘even if’ means "despite the fact" (nonostante) rather than "despite the possibility that" (anche nel caso che). If you have doubt, please read the article. (We know with certainty that Pav has ticked off some of his rivals: “Many still have an axe to grind against Pav." This is not a hypothetical.) I realize that this usage of ‘even if’ sounds “completely wrong” to many BE ears and to some AE ones, too. But that does not change the fact that this is now considered standard usage in AE by The Oxford American Dictionary. I don’t think English learners should look at this sentence and others like it and think: “This is totally wrong!” It’s not (at least not in AE). Nor should they insist that ‘even if’ can mean only anche nel caso che, and can be used only with situations where there is uncertainty and doubt. If they do, this sentence would indeed seem strange, and it shouldn’t. It’s standard AE, even if it’s not acceptable BE.
    Please, correct my English, even the smallest mistake. That would be very kind of you

  6. #46
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    Quote Originally Posted by Forero View Post
    “Life is sweet for 'Pav', even if he does leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some of his rivals.”

    I consider this and the sentence about the President to be diplomatic.
    Ooh, that’s very subtle—you’re the first to catch it. In that case, I don’t think diplomacy is a rare use of ‘even if’ at all. But not all non-hypothetical uses of ‘even if’ fall into this category, just to take two more examples, this time from The New York Times, a prestigious American newspaper:

    “But there is for Kazin a kind of beckoning sensuality to the search, even if it is hopeless.” (source)

    “While Ganesh is thought to be wise and strong, there also seems something benign in the look of his macabre body, even if he does ride around atop a rat.” (source)

    In both examples, ‘even if’ means "despite the fact" (nonostante), not "despite the possibility that" (anche nel caso che).

    Quote Originally Posted by brian8733 View Post
    I'm sorry but I think a lot of those examples (and the ones in your other post) do not actually mean even though but rather even when...
    ... the use of "even" in "even when" means "despite the fact that," just like it does in "even if." Here is an example:

    Even when you say you're going to do it, you never do! = "Despite the fact that you sometimes say..."
    ‘Although’ as defined by the OAD: “in spite of the fact that, even though”. So what you’re saying is: ‘even if’ = ‘even when’ = ‘despite the fact’ = ‘even though’. I’d say Va bene! but it’s not bene because in your example ‘even when’ means “whenever”, signaling a hypothetical. My examples in posts 16 and 29 are not hypothetical uses of ‘even if’.

    Quote Originally Posted by effeundici View Post
    I told you!! 20-30 years and you'll have forgotten the difference!!
    Just like anche se!

  7. #47
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    Re: Even though vs. Even if

    Secondo me in italiano la differenza si capisce dal contesto.

    Diciamo che più propriamente even though è sempre concessivo (benché/sebbene/nonostante...) mentre even if può non esserlo (anche se, nel senso di anche nel caso in cui, se anche, [anche] qualora). Personalmente per le concessive tendo a usare even though o although, quindi il problema non si pone spesso.

    Direi anche che in italiano anche se è una forma di registro più basso rispetto a sebbene, benché e così via.

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