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Thread: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

  1. #21
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    In Italy there are hundreds of thousands of people who unlawfully receive a disability pension, thanks to some corrupt doctors who stated those people are disabled whereas in fact they are not.
    How did those people "persuade" the docs to make a false statement?
    I haven't thought of this kind of bribing when I wrote my post above. (And of course it would be bribing, I agree on that.)

    Still, I'm fairly sure that if this is done in Austria (never heard of it but I couldn't rule it out) then it certainly isn't a major problem.
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobtm View Post
    I don't think the people on disability are in much of a position to offer bribes, though I don't think it's rare for a doctor to take pity on someone and sign off on medical forms that make their lives easier..

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    No?
    Well I think there is some doctor who have a good heart buy unfourtunatly I also think those are the less.

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  3. #23
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by sokol View Post

    Still, I'm fairly sure that if this is done in Austria (never heard of it but I couldn't rule it out) then it certainly isn't a major problem.
    It is indeed a major problem in Italy: according to INPS (Italian National social security Institute) that is the institute which pays out disability pensions, at least the 13% of the people who receive a disability pension are actually not disabled people, but crooks.
    http://www.vostrisoldi.it/articolo/p...o-false/14431/
    Every year INPS pays 13 billion euros for disability pensions.

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  4. #24
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    It depends on the definition of "bribe".

    There are physicians who have clinics specifically for "insurance" and "disability" claims.
    The "bribe" is that they receive a fee (from a third party) for the evaluation and therapy.
    In my opinion, it's illegal, but not really a bribe.
    In my opinion, they should spend some time behind bars getting to know "Bubba".

    I personally know of one case of a true "bribe".
    A large sum of cash was given to a doc to make statements about a prominent member of a "company" so that member of the "company" would spend less time behind bars.
    The doc lost her/his position, but continued to practice.
    Unfortunately, that doc did not get to know "Bubba".

    My second example, I would guess is fairly rare, but I'm sure exists on many levels here in the US.
    Last edited by TimLA; 31st December 2009 at 3:15 AM.
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adolfo Afogutu
    Quote Originally Posted by Encolpius
    The reason here (and I think in most post-communist countries) is many doctors tend to be underpaid there.
    In this corner of the world, doctors working for our National Health System are not only underpaid, but also overworked, at least the majority of them. Nevertheless, I have never even heard of anybody doing something like that. Our system has many problems, mainly of attitude towards patients, but not the one you have mentioned.

    Emphasis on "most post-communist countries".

    During the commie years, it was exceedingly common to give a little something (money, chocolate, flowers, a bottle of wine, coffee, even quality salami!) to the doctors before your treatment. This ensured that you had their attention. The nurses weren't forgotten either. So although we were all insured (no unemployment...), it cost a lot to receive medical care.

    Nowadays most doctors are still underpaid, but gift-giving is not as frequent. I've seen doctors refuse such "incentives", both old and young people. Some patients are "old-fashioned" and come with money/gifts and some doctors receive them, but most of the time you can choose to leave (or not) a small token of gratitude when you're released from hospital, or around Christmas, Women's Day, etc.

    Still: before or after surgery, you do pay up. Not the whole cost of the operation, of course (few people can afford that). It's a sum of money for the surgeon, another sum for the anesthetist. Something to ensure their goodwill. And such payments are the rule, not the exception.



    As to unlawful pensions -- during the economical crisis in the 90s many doctors tried to be kind and help out people who would otherwise lose their jobs: they declared them ill and they were able to retire for health reasons. Of course, in terms of economy, it was a bad move in the long run.
    But at the time they tried to keep individuals from losing all sources of income and I believe it rarely had anything to do with corruption.
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    The only bribing of doctors I've ever heard of here in Ireland is paying for medical certs to get time off work or in college to request extensions for assignments. There are GPs who are known for writing such certs without ever even seeing the patient.

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Therés View Post
    The only bribing of doctors I've ever heard of here in Ireland is paying for medical certs to get time off work or in college to request extensions for assignments. There are GPs who are known for writing such certs without ever even seeing the patient.
    Oh well, I didn't mention this kind of bribing before, but it's indeed quite widespread in Italy as well.
    For some rationally inexplicable reasons some civil servants, teachers, postal employees tend to get sick the day before they are supposed to go back to work after a holiday or a long weekend..
    Needless to say they can always provide a medical certificate to prove they were in danger of death and really couldn't get back from their holidays when they were supposed to

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  8. #28
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Therés View Post
    The only bribing of doctors I've ever heard of here in Ireland is paying for medical certs to get time off work or in college to request extensions for assignments. There are GPs who are known for writing such certs without ever even seeing the patient.
    No need to bribe a GP for that in Austria.

    If you want to get a few days off work it is easy enough to call in sick at your GP and ask him to write a certificate for a couple of days.

    GPs will usually do so even if you're barely sick enough to call in sick. And if you're not, doctors won't give you a certificate anyway, or say, not for a bribe - they only might do so if you're very close friends with him or her: reason being, a doctor would risk his reputation (which he might do for friendship, but certainly not for a few euros).
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by sokol View Post
    a doctor would risk his reputation
    This is a good point: a serious and honest doctor wouldn't want to risk his reputation.
    What about dishonest doctors?
    The problem is that some people don't want their GP to be a honest, incorruptible doctor. They want a muppet who's always willing to provide false medical certificates, useless prescriptions to buy drugs they don't actually need, but they want anyway and be always at their disposal.
    For these people, a GP who cares about his reputation and therefore is unwilling to fulfil each and every request they make is unfit.
    Last edited by Paulfromitaly; 3rd January 2010 at 1:49 PM.

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    In the UK it is probably more common to bribe nurses. The NHS (free healthcare system here) has two main problems: long waiting lists and appauling aftercare. In terms of surgical practices and technology it is fantastic. Bribing a doctor here won't get you higher up on a waiting list so this would be useless. If you gave a nurse some chocolates though, or some flowers, (definately not money) you may get a better standard of aftercare (i.e. sheets changed more often e.t.c.).

  11. #31
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    This is a good point: a serious and honest doctor wouldn't want to risk his reputation.
    What about dishonest doctors?
    Well, actually there may be some around here in Austria who even might try to attract patients who are trying to get illness certificates. I'm no judge about this (don't know any myself, we'd probably need statistics of our National Health Board as to whether fraud on this level - or with pensions too, as mentioned earlier - are a problem here).

    I can only say that in my experience this should be rare - else I think I've had at least heard about it; or it would be a topic whenever our politicians are discussing the huge deficit caused by our health system, which they've done almost on a regular basis, regularly.

    So the only think I can say is that by default, as this isn't an issue in public discussion here in Austria, it shouldn't be a big problem in Austria - although it may exist.

    Actually, time spent on sick leave in Austria (which should be some kind of indicator, as far as bribing of GPs for getting such is concerned) has been on the decline for years and there only was a slight rise in 2009 (noted by the media, if I remember correctly): so it is actually more likely that Austrians tend to go to work even though ill instead of calling in sick in times of crisis: the reason being, obviously, that there's pressure from employers not to call in sick in times of crisis.

    But this of course does not mean that some bribing takes place, I wouldn't like to give the impression that Austria were paradise on earth - it definitely isn't.
    "An esoteric may claim more nonsense in 5 minutes than a scientist may be able to disprove in his entire life." Vince Ebert, about fighting sciolism.

  12. #32
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    No?
    I'm a disabled person who's entitled to receive let's say $ 5,000 a year.
    I give my friend doc a call.. "Hey doc, help me get $ 10,000 and you'll get your fair share.."
    Isn't that bribing?
    In Italy there are hundreds of thousands of people who unlawfully receive a disability pension, thanks to some corrupt doctors who stated those people are disabled whereas in fact they are not.
    How did those people "persuade" the docs to make a false statement?
    Paul, I meant to speak about people in the USA receiving disability benefits, and I think here that the differences between European and American social programs comes to the fore here, where the benefits are slimmer and harder to access in the USA than in Europe.

    I don't know exact numbers, but disability benefits typically seem to be more than one's salary only if one is working for minimum wage (about $7 an hour, but different by state). If one actually finds work, their disability benefits are lost. So living on disability puts you at about $300 or $350 a week, which barely allows one to eat and pay the bills. I also don't believe that our disabilty benefits pay more for a more severe disability. I've known people who're wheelchair bound because of cerebral palsy, and the money they received was the same, barely above the salary they'd make on minimum wage.

    However, there are definitely people on disability who aren't rightly disabled, though I would assume that doctors take pity on their lack of ability/will to find a job, rather than expecting to get a bribe out of someone living on the money of a cashier.
    Last edited by Jacobtm; 8th January 2010 at 7:24 AM.

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobtm View Post
    However, there are definitely people on disability who aren't rightly disabled, though I would assume that doctors take pity on their lack of ability/will to find a job, rather than expecting to get a bribe out of someone living on the money of a cashier.
    Well about this point, I think it's kind of stupid if a doctor it's so "consider" I mean there are thousands of people who cannot find a job (more in this crisis) and I don't think that's fair. Maybe if a person had a terrible accident and you know you can help this person by "exagereting" a little bit the diagnostic. That's will be oK. But what you point about have pity just beacuse you are so lazy to find a job, that's to have corazón de pollo
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  14. #34
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobtm View Post
    However, there are definitely people on disability who aren't rightly disabled, though I would assume that doctors take pity on their lack of ability/will to find a job, rather than expecting to get a bribe out of someone living on the money of a cashier.
    This is not the case in Italy, however: here corrupt doctors do it to make some extra money, not out of pity.
    They might do it also when the allegedly disabled people don't actually pay them any money, as long as these people are friends, relatives, colleagues or acquaintances of a politician, a police officer, a mafia guy etc, that is someone whose help might come in handy in the future..

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    They might do it also when the allegedly disabled people don't actually pay them any money, as long as these people are friends, relatives, colleagues or acquaintances of a politician, a police officer, a mafia guy etc, that is someone whose help might come in handy in the future..
    Yeah just in this case but.... if you are giving someone a disability it's because he is not going to work again, so ¿? About mafia guys or police officer maybe their influence can help you, but those are very special situations, besides I suppose this guys has their own doctors
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    To give or not to give? You look at a doctor, the way s/he's talking, the way s/he's looking at you, and you guess what kind of person s/he is, and you figure out whether to give or not, what to give and how much to give. You should also know how to give to make it look like an act of gratitude, respect, etc. otherwise it may look offensive and have the opposite effect. Strange as it may seem, it all helps you to establish a sort of personal relationship with him/her. And it's not only about doctors, it's a rule when you come to any government controlled office. Would I prefer not to do it? Of course, I would. But let's be realistic. What with all those crazy laws and regulations, all of us need a little help from time to time. But you can always choose to be a never-to-give-a-bribe person, if you want your life to turn into a nightmare.
    Last edited by Garbuz; 8th January 2010 at 7:41 PM.

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguelillo 87 View Post
    Yeah just in this case but.... if you are giving someone a disability it's because he is not going to work again, so ¿? About mafia guys or police officer maybe their influence can help you, but those are very special situations, besides I suppose this guys has their own doctors
    Sorry if I didn't make myself clear
    A typical example: I'm a mafia guy and I want my 12 cousins to get a disability pension, that is some extra money.
    I pick up the phone and call the right (corrupt) doctor - "Hello there, this is Mr mafia guy. I would really appreciate it if you could see to it that my 12 cousins get a disability pension. You don't want to see your brand new car blow up, do you? I'm sure you don't..I'm also sure that once my 12 cousins get their pension, I can find a way to return this favour..".
    The doc can't really refuse to help me, but at the same time he receives something in return. Everyone is now happy
    Someone might say: well, that's not bribing, that's threatening the doctor!
    This is partially true in this specific example, but the point is that the mafia guys as well as politicians or whoever wants to unlawfully be granted a disability pension turn to these morally and ethically deplorable doctors who are willing to cooperate for money.
    Last edited by Paulfromitaly; 9th January 2010 at 11:10 AM.

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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Here in Ontario, Canada bribing doctors is not done as far as I know. Our public health system does not allow for most private treatment, so we are stuck with long waits for just about any treatment. In Ontario the doctors have a list posted for charges not covered by the health care system - sick leave notes, get out of jury duty notes, examinations for job requirements, etc. Many people show their appreciation in small gifts after treatment or by donations to a medical institution. Donations are very popular gifts.
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Although we have been taught bribing is bad, I am starting to feel it is a very comfortable way to get both parts satisfied. And I think it is still a lot cheaper than business based private sectors. State does not like it, because it can get no taxes out of it.
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    Re: Bribing medical doctors in your country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulfromitaly View Post
    Sorry if I didn't make myself clear
    A typical example: I'm a mafia guy and I want my 12 cousins to get a .
    You had clarified it very, very well!!!!! and I have to say i totally agree with you I suppose here in Mexico, Narco guys do the same in some cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
    Although we have been taught bribing is bad, I am starting to feel it is a very comfortable way to get both parts satisfied. And I think it is still a lot cheaper than business based private sectors. State does not like it, because it can get no taxes out of it.
    Well It is suppose we have to life in status-quo well all get what they need when they need it. Bribing will be against those principles...but hey wake-up Miguel We live in real world.
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