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Thread: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

  1. #41
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Sorry ! Ho dimenticato il link . Quì.


  2. #42
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by itka View Post
    Sorry ! Ho dimenticato il link . Quì.
    Itka, hai ascoltato bene quando dice "in cinquant'anni si fanno tanti errori..."?

    Ecco, quello è un classico esempio di "erre moscia"...

    P.S.: la i di qui non è accentata
    Beti egongozera uda berrikua, lore aintzinetako mantxa gabekoa.

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Montesacro View Post
    Itka, hai ascoltato bene quando dice "in cinquant'anni si fanno tanti errori..."?

    Ecco, quello è un classico esempio di "erre moscia"...

    P.S.: la i di qui non è accentata
    errori ==> This is what I hear; the tongue is definitely floating in the mouth instead of being pressed against the palate (and simultaneously vibrating)
    Please, correct my English, even the smallest mistake. That would be very kind of you

  4. #44
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Nella parola "errori" si sente che non è la propria [r] italiana... ma non è nemmeno quella francese... Non so esattamente com'è la "r moscia". Ho sempre creduto fosse la "r" francese, ma qui () ... no.
    Nelle altre parole, sento soltanto una vera [r] italiana, non la sentite così ?

    Si sente una vera [r] francese (moscia ?) quando si ascolta Piemontesi o mi pare anche certi Valdotani.


  5. #45
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by itka View Post
    Nella parola "errori" si sente che non è la propria [r] italiana... ma non è nemmeno quella francese... Non so esattamente com'è la "r moscia". Ho sempre creduto fosse la "r" francese, ma qui () ... no.
    Nelle altre parole, sento soltanto una vera [r] italiana, non la sentite così ?

    Si sente una vera [r] francese (moscia ?) quando si ascolta Piemontesi o mi pare anche certi Valdotani.
    errori in this case is a perfect example of r moscia.

    Probably our ear is not refined enough to differentiate between r moscia and French r.
    Please, correct my English, even the smallest mistake. That would be very kind of you

  6. #46
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    For what it's worth, it does not sound like a French r to Catalan/Spanish-speakers. At least not to me. Actually, I'm not sure I find anything weird in that r.
    Dale un pez y comerá un día, dale una caña y pedirá una tapa.

  7. #47
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Euskaraz ikasten dutenei asko kostatzen zaie euskal txistukarien bereizketa egitea. Nekez bereizten dituzte sistema osatzen duten sei soinuak: "ts", "tz" eta "tx" afrikariak eta "s", "z" eta "x" frikariak. Hala ere, ama-hizkuntza euskara dugun askok ere (mendebaldeko euskalkiaz mintzatzen garenok) ez ditugu bereizten "s" (txistukaria, frikaria, bizkarkari-hobikaria eta gorra) eta "z" (txistukaria, frikaria, apikari-hobikaria, ozena), eta lehenbiziko soinua ahoskatzen dugu (/s/). Gainerakoak, ordea, ondo bereizten ditugu.

    A los que aprenden a hablar vasco sin que sea su lengua materna les cuesta mucho diferenciar las sibilantes. Suelen tener muchas dificultades a la hora de distinguir los seis sonidos que forman el sistema de sibilantes: las africadas "ts", "tz" y "tx" y las fricativas "s", "z" y "x". Pero somos muchos (los que hablamos el dialecto occidental) quienes, teniendo como lengua materna el vasco, no diferenciamos el sonido /s/ (sibilante, fricativa, apical, alveolar, sorda) del sonido /z/ (sibilante, fricativa, dorsal, alveolar, sonora) y los neutralizamos pronunciando el primero (/s/). El resto de sibilantes las diferenciamos bien.

  8. #48
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    There are people in Britain who cannot pronounce the 'th' sound and consistently pronounce it as 'f'. I have a friend who does this, it's normally not a problem but sometimes can lead to confusion (three/free for example).
    Nimm den Ring vom Finger denn ich will den Ring zurück!

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Turkish is a CVCV (consonnant-vowel-cons..) language. And I know that a great deal of Turks are struggling with the loan words that start with two consonants, and they squeeze a subtle vowel in the middle to solve it.

    Tren (Train) --> Tiren
    Kral (King) --> Kıral

    etc.

    And sometimes they add a vowel in the beginning so that the word doesn't start with two consonants.

    "Stop etmek" is an expression meaning that the Engine of a car has stopped.

    Most people would say: " istop etmek ".


    Secondly, I don't know if it's because they find it difficult, but most turks pronounce the R at the end of the words so lightly, that it comes out like a "sh" sound.

    I was in a tourist tour, the guide was saying humourously:

    The guide: - All right guys, here'sh is our Burger'sh King, it's one of a kind.
    My American friend: - Why is he saying: here'sh, burger'sh etc?
    Me: - He's a Turk. :P

    This is not about any incapability, but merely laziness. And of course there are lisps who can't pronunce the "s", and some people who just can't say "R"s.
    Last edited by Rallino; 4th March 2010 at 9:11 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly B View Post
    In American English, even among adults without physical impairments, it is not terribly uncommon to hear a lisp (the letter s is pronounced as th or another fricative) or a dropped r (the letter r sounds like w or oo).
    This reminds me of a cartoon from the late fifties or early sixties: There's a girl in a recording studio for a singing test. The recording company man says to her: "I'm sorry, young lady, but you can't become a pop singer. You don't lisp your s."

    (In fact, the lisping esses of the singers on those days were more due to the rudimentary recording and audio techniques than articulation disorders of the singers.)

  11. #51
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by mirx View Post
    As I understood the question, these people have affected speech but without any physical impediment that explains it. What I described could not be classed as a dialect, as they are isolated cases rather than the norm. I meant some people living in rural settings who also tend to be old, if it were a dialect all the people in rural settings would speak like that and is not the case.
    Dialects are not only defined by region, but also by age, ethnic group, gender, and whether it belongs to an urban or rural setting (just think of African-American Vernacular English). What you mentioned is a dialect, not an articulation disorder as per the request of the OP.

    Now, the mispronunciation of the /r/ sound (as some other sound) and the /s/ sound (as a lisp) are actual articulations disorders.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildan1 View Post
    I have a Mexican friend who claims he has never been able to pronounce the trilled RR, but instead uses the single flap R (pero and perro sound the same when he says them)

    He said his parents told him "your tongue is too short" and that's what he tells others who notice it.
    My younger brother is one of such, for the same reason: the length of some particular ligaments under his tongue. However, he doesn't use the [ɾ] (the r in pero) to replace it, but rather a whole new phone. To my ears it sounds like a [ɹ] (the American/British/Australian English r), but with some level of frication. (So far he hasn't allowed me to get real close to his mouth to see how he pronounces it.)

  12. #52
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Welshie View Post
    There are people in Britain who cannot pronounce the 'th' sound and consistently pronounce it as 'f'. I have a friend who does this, it's normally not a problem but sometimes can lead to confusion (three/free for example).
    I thought it was a feature of some accents, especially those that black people from London speak.
    And I think it´s also a colloquial way of pronouncing some words, like bothered which becomes bovvered or something similar. (I know in this case the sound is a bit different from the one in three, but I thought I should point it out all the same)

    In Spanish, there is a very subtle mispronunciation of the word "n" that some people do. I guess it could qualify as a speech impediment. Some people instead of saying "mano", make that /n/ interdental, thus the word sounds a wee bit like "mando". Again, this is a very sublte problem and not everybody can hear it. But some of us, are dog-eared cats...
    I´m really late here, but this has been a really interesting thread. And it´s quite clear that /s/ and /r/ are the most tricky sounds in almost any language. There must be an explanation for that which I haven´t got I´m afraid.
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

  13. #53
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Outlandish wrote in this thread, about Arabic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlandish View Post
    Some impediments are: pronouncing the r as w, or y or as the French r. Pronouncing the k as t (usually done by kids). Pronouncing the sh sound like a certain sh I hear in the German language. And of course, the lisp produced when pronouncing the s, z.

  14. #54
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Welshie View Post
    There are people in Britain who cannot pronounce the 'th' sound and consistently pronounce it as 'f'. I have a friend who does this, it's normally not a problem but sometimes can lead to confusion (three/free for example).
    Quote Originally Posted by kidika View Post
    I thought it was a feature of some accents, especially those that black people from London speak. Not only black people, it's typical Cockney pronunciation.
    And I think it´s also a colloquial way of pronouncing some words, like bothered which becomes bovvered or something similar. Yes, if we want to imitate Londoners.
    In Liverpool there is a tendency to pronounce a "t" as an "r" in some positions, so "What about that?" becomes "Worrabout that?"

    These are not articulation disorders but regional "lazinesses". I think an articulation disorder is when an individual is unable to speak like those round him.

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    In Liverpool there is a tendency to pronounce a "t" as an "r" in some positions, so "What about that?" becomes "Worrabout that?"

    These are not articulation disorders but regional "lazinesses". I think an articulation disorder is when an individual is unable to speak like those round him.
    Ta Einstein! I thought that "f" thing was not a disorder at all.

    But that "t" becoming "r" when it is between vowel sounds is one of the main features that differenciate AmE from BrE, isn´t it? Are all Americans lazy?
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by kidika View Post
    Ta Einstein! I thought that "f" thing was not a disorder at all.

    But that "t" becoming "r" when it is between vowel sounds is one of the main features that differentiate AmE from BrE, isn´t it? Are all Americans lazy?
    Well, I did put "laziness" in quotes. I'd say that in American speech the "t" becomes more of a "d" than an "r" ... and not only American; it happens in some British regional accents too.

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    Well, I did put "laziness" in quotes. I'd say that in American speech the "t" becomes more of a "d" than an "r" ... and not only American; it happens in some British regional accents too.
    I know, I was just kidding.
    Anyway, to me that American "d" sounds more like an "r". According to antimoon.com I am quite right:

    In American English, t is often pronounced as a "flap t", which sounds like d or (more accurately) like the quick, hard r heard e.g. in the Spanish word pero. For example: letter.
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Then this might be a good way to teach Americans (and British too) how to pronounce the Spanish or Italian "r"!

  19. #59
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
    Then this might be a good way to teach Americans (and British too) how to pronounce the Spanish or Italian "r"!
    Good idea!
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

  20. #60
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    In Liverpool there is a tendency to pronounce a "t" as an "r" in some positions, so "What about that?" becomes "Worrabout that?"

    These are not articulation disorders but regional "lazinesses".
    It's not regional laziness!
    It's a fairly rare colloquial aspect of some speakers' dialect (i.e. Cilla Black and 2 other people) which you do hear infrequently. The list of diversions from RP for all other accents around the UK result in pages and pages of fairly detailed differences. These shouldn't be called 'laziness' because they don't match up with the prestige dialect. All dialects of a language have their own quirks and idiosyncratic features, more common that is the use of a somewhat AE-sounding alveolar flap in quick speech.

    As someone who studies dialects of English, I have to point out that variations from a standard are not to be considered "an articulation disorder", or be labelled with unhelpful adjectives that give a false impression of the speakers that use it. (Can you tell I'm from Liverpool? )

    Quote Originally Posted by effeundici
    The most typical pronunciation defects in Italian are the lisp and the so called "limp r" which consists in using the French r in the place of the Italian trilling sound.
    Ciao F11, is this what Giulio Tremonti has?
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 26th June 2010 at 8:55 PM.

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