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Thread: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

  1. #61
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Alex, don't be offended, I put the word "laziness" in quotes because I know perfectly well that it's something else. But it does "ease" the passage from one letter to another. Different regions have their own ways of doing this.
    I mentioned that the "d" is used instead of the "t" also in England. I used to hear old people in Kent say "fourdeen" and I think this is a case where the Americans don't use a "d".
    And Alex, not all people from South of the Wash are defenders of RP. Look for other interpretations of what I say!

    I'm not sure that Tremonti's r is really like the French r. It sounds more like the sound made by English speakers who can't pronounce their r's. A better example is Fausto Bertinotti, if you've heard him, but there are plenty of other examples.

  2. #62
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    It sounds more like the sound made by English speakers who can't pronounce their r's
    Exactly! I have been looking to define that typical speech characteristic in Italian (i.e. Tremonti's) but I never knew what to search for, so thought that F11 had just mentioned what it was called.

    Also, I didn't realise it was you who posted when I originally replied (I just read the message) when I realised (just now) it was you, I knew exactly what you meant and how you meant it, I should read who the poster is as well! (Sorry!)

  3. #63
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    In Cyprus articulation disorders are treated in primary schools.

    I remember endless hours of practicing the /s/ sound (and therefore /ks/ and /ps/ which are regarded phonemes on their own in Greek) which I pronounced as /θ/, and the dreaded /r/ (trilled r) sound, which I still can not pronounce (I say something close to /ɻ/, an approximant, which is slightly more acceptable than the /ʁ/ I used to pronounce).
    My mother also says I used to pronounce /ʎ/ as /j/, but I don't remember such a thing :S
    My username is pronounced /ði'mitris/, romanized Dimitris, cyrillicized Димитрис and katakanized ディミトリス.

  4. #64
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    As a six-year-old, I consistently mispronounced sibilants. I would pronounce judge as zhuzh and chief as sheaf. A speech therapist quickly taught me that if I placed an imaginary 'd' before the 'g' sounds and an imaginary 't' before the 'sh' sounds, that would correct it, and within a week or two the matter was solved.

    But five years later, when I came to learn French, I had a head start on my classmates in pronouncing the French j and ch sounds!

  5. #65
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly B View Post
    In American English, even among adults without physical impairments, it is not terribly uncommon to hear a lisp (the letter s is pronounced as th or another fricative) or a dropped r (the letter r sounds like w or oo). I'm not referring to regional variants, nor to idiosyncracies.

    Do the same kinds of issues exist among adult native speakers of your own language?
    Well, I've never noticed anything like this in my country. Maybe because I've got used to hearing Russian speech and I don't take into account any speech distortion even when I ecounter it. People with physical impairment can sometimes omit sounds in words, but the reason for this is clear and doesn't need explaining. There are sometimes children unable to say some sounds or sound combinations. That's clear as well. However able-bodied adults usually proniunce everything correctly and their phrases are comprehensible to me.

  6. #66
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Welshie View Post
    There are people in Britain who cannot pronounce the 'th' sound and consistently pronounce it as 'f'. I have a friend who does this, it's normally not a problem but sometimes can lead to confusion (three/free for example).
    This mispronunciation is common in parts of London. In fact, this can help French and other non-English speakers who have problems pronouncing "th-".

    Usually those who don't have the /q/ sound in their native language (i.e. most people except Greek and Spanish speakers) try to approximate with /s/ or /z/. This makes them sound foreign. But if they replace the sound with /f/ or /v/, they'll sound English ...but with a London accent!

  7. #67
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Wertis View Post
    Well, I've never noticed anything like this in my country. Maybe because I've got used to hearing Russian speech and I don't take into account any speech distortion even when I ecounter it. People with physical impairment can sometimes omit sounds in words, but the reason for this is clear and doesn't need explaining. There are sometimes children unable to say some sounds or sound combinations. That's clear as well. However able-bodied adults usually proniunce everything correctly and their phrases are comprehensible to me.
    I agree that the articulation disorders are rare among Russian adults. I do not know exactly what is the reason for that, but I suppose it might be because such things are usually treated in early childhood.
    However, the most common example of an articulation disorder in Russian speech is mispronouncing R. I would not say it is very common, but there are some adults who fail to pronounce this sound correctly. And the most typical substituation for the Russian R is the uvular R like in French. A well-known historical fact is that Lenin was one of such persons.
    Other types of articulation mistakes (as substitution of S for SH, or of SH for S etc) can be heard from young children in their 5 or somewhat alike, but are extremely rare for grown-ups.

  8. #68
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Moro12 View Post
    I agree that the articulation disorders are rare among Russian adults. I do not know exactly what is the reason for that, but I suppose it might be because such things are usually treated in early childhood.
    What we're discussing here is supposed to be articulation disorder, and hence they're also supposed to be rare (as opposed to dialectal differences or innovative pronunciations, which affect a significant number of people in a group).

  9. #69
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Bradford View Post
    As a six-year-old, I consistently mispronounced sibilants. I would pronounce judge as zhuzh and chief as sheaf. A speech therapist quickly taught me that if I placed an imaginary 'd' before the 'g' sounds and an imaginary 't' before the 'sh' sounds, that would correct it, and within a week or two the matter was solved.
    This even seems to be contagious . I have a few cousins (brothers and sisters) who all pronounced the word chocolade (chocolate in Dutch) as sokolade when they were in their early teens. They eventually got rid of it through therapy.

  10. #70
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    I used to have hundreds of Manouche (Romany) friends in France. A significant number had cleft palates or harelips or else were deaf-mute, but apart from those physical defects, all of them, without exception, consistently mispronounced both certain words and certain sounds and had great difficulty in pronouncing others. It was about twenty years ago and my memory's failing, but one example was l'oie (the goose) which was pronounced lasoie, and I'll add some better ones if me brian starts working again. Of course, many also spoke at least Romany (a language) and amongst themselves, when they weren't making any effort for a gadje, they spoke what might be called a dialect, which was an adapted French, spoken in a musical gabble, pronounced with their own accent, their own special mispronounciations and ways of conugating verbs (j'ai peindu, rather than j'ai peint) but certainly they had particular, habitual or almost universal disorders (I'm choosing the word from the opening post) that weren't caused by any physical defect, but were orally acquired and shared by the group and by all the Romany travelers I met elsewhere in France. Only those who had pursued education or work outside the group gradually altered their speech.

  11. #71
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Bradford View Post
    As a six-year-old, I consistently mispronounced sibilants. I would pronounce judge as zhuzh and chief as sheaf. A speech therapist quickly taught me that if I placed an imaginary 'd' before the 'g' sounds and an imaginary 't' before the 'sh' sounds, that would correct it, and within a week or two the matter was solved.
    Then if you learn Italian, you can learn the Tuscan accent

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Bradford View Post
    This mispronunciation is common in parts of London. In fact, this can help French and other non-English speakers who have problems pronouncing "th-".

    Usually those who don't have the /q/ sound in their native language (i.e. most people except Greek and Spanish speakers) try to approximate with /s/ or /z/. This makes them sound foreign. But if they replace the sound with /f/ or /v/, they'll sound English ...but with a London accent!
    This also common in Hong Kong and Singapore pronunciations of English. Did the Londoners bring their pronunciation there?
    "Ĉokolado". Do you know how to say "chócoleit" in "Espanis"?

  12. #72
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    Re: Articulation disorders in speakers of your native language

    Quote Originally Posted by Moro12 View Post
    I agree that the articulation disorders are rare among Russian adults. I do not know exactly what is the reason for that, but I suppose it might be because such things are usually treated in early childhood.
    However, the most common example of an articulation disorder in Russian speech is mispronouncing R. I would not say it is very common, but there are some adults who fail to pronounce this sound correctly. And the most typical substituation for the Russian R is the uvular R like in French. A well-known historical fact is that Lenin was one of such persons.
    Other types of articulation mistakes (as substitution of S for SH, or of SH for S etc) can be heard from young children in their 5 or somewhat alike, but are extremely rare for grown-ups.
    My first two languages were hebrew and russian, hebrew having the uvular R, I was not able to roll my R's in russian until I practised A WHOLE LOT (place finger under tongue and move it side-to-side while continuously making a DDD sound), and at 13 picked it up. I also couldn't pronounce SH and used S instead.

    Also, I used TH instead of a soft L which I was unaware of for a long time.

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