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Thread: All Slavic languages: Articles

  1. #41
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Quote Originally Posted by phosphore View Post
    I don't really understand how you prove that use of articles is mandatory in a language:
    Yesterday, I saw a blond girl driving a red car. Today, I saw the girl driving a blue car. I saw also the red car driven by a brunette this time.
    J'ai vu hier une blonde dans une auto rouge. Aujourd'hui, j'ai vue la blonde dans une auto bleue. J'ai vue aussi l'auto rouge avec une brunette dedans.
    Вчера я увидел блондинку за рулём красной машины. Сегодня блондинка сидела за рулём машины голубого цвета, а за рулём красной машины сидела брюнетка.
    We cannot omit the articles in English neither can we in French: definiteness and/or indefiniteness must be expressed explicitely. We cannot rely on the context for that. English and French are arthromaniac.

    In Russian, definiteness and/or indefiniteness can be merely implied by the context. Russian (Polish, Serbo-Croatian, etc) is not arthromaniac.

    Quote Originally Posted by phosphore View Post
    For example, both English and French has articles but they use it quite differently.
    The above example shows that the usage of articles in English and French agree in the basic cases. In some special cases, they do differ. In some special cases, there are differences in the usage of articles even inside the Romanophonia: ma mère (French) vs. la mia madre (Italian).

    Quote Originally Posted by phosphore View Post
    Could someone tell us when, historically, were articles grammaticalised in Bulgarian?
    Bulgarian caught the arthromania as a member of the Balkan sprachbund, not earlier than 10th century. On the other hand, Bulgarian should have caught the arthromania early enough. And respectively, the articles should have been grammaticalised early enough. This is because we need the article -та already grammaticalised for feminine nouns (жената, водата) and then applied to all a-stemmed nouns (владиката, воеводата). When Turkish came to Balkans (15th century approx.), the grammaticalisation of articles should be already finished because massive a-stemmed loanwords took the article -та: чорбаджията, завалията, etc.

  2. #42
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    I do not think your example works. The direct translation from Russian to Serbian would be:

    Јуче сам видео плавушу за воланом црвеног аутомобила. Данас је плавуша седела за воланом плавог аутомобила, а за воланом црвеног аутомобила седела је бринета.

    However, it sounds highly unnatural to me, if not ungrammatical. I would rather say:

    Јуче сам видео неку плавушу како вози црвен аутомобил. Данас је та плавуша возила плав аутомобил, а онај црвени је возила нека бринета.

    Serbian definitely has no articles but in this case you have to express definiteness or undefinitess somehow and in all the same cases as in French or English.
    Last edited by phosphore; 27th July 2009 at 5:29 PM.

  3. #43
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    AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Quote Originally Posted by cajzl View Post
    I wanted to say that the majority of the Slavs uses unconsciously the demonstrative enclitic in their speech. Only the Bulgarians use it consciously, but they replaced the jь, ja, je by tъ, ta, to.

    BTW it is not a theory, the demonstrative pronoun jь, ja, je existed in OCS (in some form; and in Old Czech: jen, jě, je) and meant ten, ta, to (this, the). Thus the Proto-Slavic dobra-ja voda meant the good water.
    You know, you are right but in preslavonic it was a personal pronoun which stem from Indoeuropean personal pronoun for he,she,it. If you compare it with Latin or Sankskrit or Baltic languages you will see a big similarity.

    And according to Bugarian and Macedonian this particle hasnt been replaced its been added to it.

    DOBRI+OT ČOVEK and not DOBER+OT čovek, you see?

  4. #44
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Moderator note:

    This is an old thread - but with the vivid new discussion about definiteness of Slavic adjectives we finally thought it is better to split these topics:

    - in this thread here, please continue to discuss articles of Bulgarian and Macedonian and those Slavic languages which have adopted articles in colloquial speech (like some Slovene dialects, as mentioned above);

    - in the new thread definitiveness of adjectives.

    Unfortunately, some posts referred to both topics and when splitting I had to make a choice. (And I only can hope that I chose well.)

    Thanks for your understanding!
    Cheers
    sokol
    moderator
    "An esoteric may claim more nonsense in 5 minutes than a scientist may be able to disprove in his entire life." Vince Ebert, about fighting sciolism.

  5. #45
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    In modern Eastern Slavic languages, the indefiniteness is often expressed using the numeral "one" (as we know, practically all European languages have their indefinite articles that evolved from the numeral "one"). However, the Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian "one" is never officially identified as "the indefinite article" and its use isn't compulsory to express indefiniteness, so to speak.

    Russ. У меня есть один друг, который....
    Ukr. У мене є один друг, який...
    Transl. I have one friend who... (i.e. I have a friend who...)

    Re. the definiteness, it's almost exclusively expressed using the demonstrative pronouns (Russ. этот, тот; Ukr. цей, той). Interestingly, in Modern Russian (both colloquial and literary) you're likely to come across the de-facto definite article -то used in postposition (exactly like in Bulgarian).

    e.g.
    Russ. Море-то тёплое
    Bulg. Морето е топло
    Eng. The sea is warm.

    This -то is indeed viewed by many Russian linguists as the definite article. However, it's unlikely to be called so in school grammar books partly because its use isn't compulsory to express definiteness.

    The "-то article" or something of that sort isn't found in Modern Ukrainian.
    ¿Alguien más necesita la desinteresada ayuda de Súper Pocoyó?

  6. #46
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    This -то isn't an article in any way: it isn't obligatory, it doesn't mark definiteness, it can be used with pronouns. It is an intensive particle only. "Море-то тёплое" doesn't mean "The sea is warm", it means "() sea is actually warm" and implies you thought it wasn't.

  7. #47
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    AW: Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Quote Originally Posted by Sobakus View Post
    This -то isn't an article in any way: it isn't obligatory, it doesn't mark definiteness, it can be used with pronouns. It is an intensive particle only. "Море-то тёплое" doesn't mean "The sea is warm", it means "() sea is actually warm" and implies you thought it wasn't.
    I agree with you.

  8. #48
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Quote Originally Posted by Sobakus View Post
    This -то isn't an article in any way: it isn't obligatory, it doesn't mark definiteness, it can be used with pronouns. It is an intensive particle only. "Море-то тёплое" doesn't mean "The sea is warm", it means "() sea is actually warm" and implies you thought it wasn't.
    You're SO wrong.
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  9. #49
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukrainito View Post
    You're SO wrong.
    Elaborate, please.

  10. #50
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    All Slavic languages: Definite article

    As you probably know, except for Bulgarian and Macedonian, no standard Slavic language uses definite article regularly. Lately, however, I have often observed in Czech, that many people, including educated speakers in very formal speech, overuse demonstrative pronouns ("ten, ta, to, ti, ty, ta") in a way very close to the definite article.

    E. g.: Všechny ty knihy jsou o tom životě těch lidí za války.
    (All the books are about the life of the people during the war.)


    None of these pronouns is used reasonably - all of them are mere articles. I think it was not used before nineties.

    What about other Slavic languages? Is there any similar tendency?

    Thanks for answers.

  11. #51
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Definite article

    Here's an interesting article on the word ta, which can function as an adjectival definite article in colloquial Slovenian:

    http://www.ung.si/~rzaucer/papers/MarusicZaucer-2007-Adjectival-definite-article-in-Slo.pdf [PDF format)

    Furthermore, the words meaning "one" (ena, ena, eno) frequently function as indefinite articles in colloquial Slovenian.

    Also, the Resian dialect of Slovenian -- a standardized form of the language spoken in a few remote Italian valleys -- has fully fledged articles: te (definite) and din (indefinite).

    None of these forms exist in standard Slovenian.
    Last edited by TriglavNationalPark; 22nd March 2013 at 3:52 AM.

  12. #52
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    [QUOTE=Christo Tamarin;7469343]We cannot omit the articles in English neither can we in French: definiteness and/or indefiniteness must be expressed explicitely. We cannot rely on the context for that. English and French are arthromaniac.

    Good as a general rule, but not entirely accurate. There is no plural indefinite article in English. The absence of the definite article indicates "indefiniteness." For example, in the phrase "Girls just want to have fun," the lack of an article implies that the phrase refers to all girls.

    [QUOTE=Ukrainito;7493558]In modern Eastern Slavic languages, the indefiniteness is often expressed using the numeral "one" (as we know, practically all European languages have their indefinite articles that evolved from the numeral "one"). However, the Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian "one" is never officially identified as "the indefinite article" and its use isn't compulsory to express indefiniteness, so to speak.

    Russ. У меня есть один друг, который....
    Ukr. У мене є один друг, який...
    Transl. I have one friend who... (i.e. I have a friend who...)

    I would argue that the use of один implies "definiteness" rather than "indefiniteness" since you are emphasising that this applies only to one single friend and does not apply to other friends. If you say simply У мене друг, який... you are also talking about one friend in particular, but not excluding the possibility that this might apply also to other friends.

  13. #53
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    A little bit of the definite and indefinite article in Bulgarian. Somebody said that a is interchangable with ЪТ. This is so wrong. The form A is used when it is not subject and when it is in front of a conj. For instance: Попитах човекА (not човекът). Meaning I asked the man. Man here is OBJECT and not Subject. When it is SUBJECT or after the verb съм (be) we use the complete form. Човекът ме попита. Аз съм докторът. (The man asked me. Here man is subject and not object). The second sentence means: I am the doctor. It is the full form because of the verb SUM. In addition, the full form is NOMINATIVE (because it is subject), the indefinite form is ACCUSATIVE (because it is object). It is mistaken by many bulgarians such as BULGARIAN. It is still considered as a big mistake.

  14. #54
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    And here we go again with that full article nonsense.
    Попитах човек(ът/а). / Човек(ът/а) (го) попитах.
    Човек(ът/а) ме попита. / Попита ме човек(ът/а).
    Кравата я открадна разбойник(ът/а) от с. Ощава. / Разбойник(ът/а) от с. Ощава открадна кравата.
    Подлози, допълненийца, алимити-балимити…

  15. #55
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Това, че не можеш да научиш едно просто правило за членовете в бълг. език не е мой проблем. Ако искаш си комуникирай с мимики, но в бълг. език има ПРАВИЛА..........

  16. #56
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Кой мерзък зложелател ти е подшушнал, че точно това измислено правилце не мога да го науча? Въобще, откъде си толкоз сигурен какво съм усвоил и какво не? Някакъв изпит ли съм положил съвсем несъзнателно при теб, непознати доценте?
    А това, че ти не умееш да отделяш със запетаи елементарни подчинени изречения, не е пък моя грижа. Също така не съм приритал да изписвам с главни букви всяка десета дума. Като гледам колко… красноречиво се изразяваш писмено, май-май тъкмо на теб приляга жестомимичният език.

  17. #57
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Първо, някъде да съм казал, че си полагал някакъв изпит при мене??? Аз ти казвам, че е грешка да се заменя пълен определит. член с неопределителен. Това е форум и пунктуационните првила не са толкова важни....

  18. #58
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Изпита действително не си го споменал, но пък наперено заяви, че не мога да науча правилото, макар да е просто. Като ми се напише черно на бяло, че нещо не го мога, точно това и предполагам, че се има предвид. Колкото до другото — мисля, че препинателните знаци са също толкова важни, колкото и разни изкуствени и безполезни членни форми, несъблюдавани от кажи-речи никого.

  19. #59
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    Извинявам се, ако съм по някакъв начин те обидил. Темата все пак в края на краищата е за членовете в бълг. език, а не за пунктуацията. За останалото си прав.

  20. #60
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    Re: All Slavic languages: Articles

    MOD NOTE: Just a quick reminder: For the benefit of other foreros, please use English in this thread devoted to all Slavic languages. If you would prefer to use Bulgarian, please open a new thread for that purpose. Also, please keep the conversation civil (for instance, avoid referring to other foreros' posts as "nonsense").

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