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Thread: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

  1. #321
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by coconutpalm View Post
    China has a recorded history of about 6,000 years. In its long long history, it had invaded other countries or had many smaller countries as its tributary states. On the other hand, since 1840, China became a semi-feudal and semi-colonial country and China was to a large extent invaded. In the World War II, it was invaded by Japan.
    Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is very bad. What is worse, many people in both countries loathe the other country.

    Here arise my questions (a lot ):

    Many countries have a history as invador or occupied territory (or both) of their neighbours.

    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?

    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?

    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?

    To which point can this country be considered having "overcome this history", as an invador or an invadee?

    You can choose one specific question to answer, but please keep in mind that it's not an invitation to air old grievance.

    At last, I want to say "thank you" to Chaska, Emma and daoxunchang for providing me with excellent suggestions!


    Edit: I edited my post according to CrazyIvan's suggestion.Thank you! And I apologize if my previous words, clearly missending my intention as planned, offend anyone.



    Quote Originally Posted by almostfreebird View Post
    Kind of invasion by kind of drunken driver(hero in China) in this era, not hundreds or thousands years ago.

    http://www.japanprobe.com/2010/11/05...e-patrol-boat/





    Anti-Japan protests in China turn violent
    If people were meant to pop out of bed in the morning, we'd all sleep in toasters.
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  2. #322
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    The Chinese protests are whipped up by the government for their own ends (diverting attention away from a slowing economy). As one protester said, ''they teach us to hate Japan at school and then bus us to protests; who can be in any shock when these protests turn violent?''

  3. #323
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro y La Torre View Post
    The Chinese protests are whipped up by the government for their own ends (diverting attention away from a slowing economy). As one protester said, ''they teach us to hate Japan at school and then bus us to protests; who can be in any shock when these protests turn violent?''
    I second that. It is quite difficult here to grasp how the Chinese and Japanese feel about each other because both nations have been manipulated by their governments for years. Don't really want to go into details here, but i really mean BOTH.
    As I like to say, The Chinese and Japanese are like the French and the British, they have so much in common that they only focus on their differences.
    If you hesitate, take a piece of good old paper and a real pen, write it down. Then you know.

  4. #324
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by WME View Post
    I second that. It is quite difficult here to grasp how the Chinese and Japanese feel about each other because both nations have been manipulated by their governments for years. Don't really want to go into details here, but i really mean BOTH.
    As I like to say, The Chinese and Japanese are like the French and the British, they have so much in common that they only focus on their differences.

    But British goverment wouldn't ban publication of books about French,
    and vice versa.

    http://www.japanprobe.com/2012/09/22...s-about-japan/
    If people were meant to pop out of bed in the morning, we'd all sleep in toasters.
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  5. #325
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by almostfreebird View Post
    But British goverment wouldn't ban publication of books about French,
    and vice versa.

    http://www.japanprobe.com/2012/09/22...s-about-japan/
    There was a time when it was the case.
    I sincerely believe that most Chinese nowadays have nothing against Japanese, except the educated masses in the cities. Yes the educated masses are the most nationalistic in China these days, because they are the ones who have an interest to comply with the official propaganda.
    If you hesitate, take a piece of good old paper and a real pen, write it down. Then you know.

  6. #326
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Wie vor hundert Jahren

    Helmut Schmidt mag es nicht, wenn jemand im Westen China kritisiert. Bemerkenswert ist seine Begründung dafür. China tue doch nur das, was Großbritannien und andere Mächte vor hundert Jahren auch getan hätten. Wir haben aber inzwischen gelernt, dass das, was Großbritannien und andere Mächte vor hundert Jahren taten, Imperialismus war und deshalb schlecht. Weshalb also - vorausgesetzt natürlich, Schmidt hat recht mit seiner Einschätzung chinesischen Handelns - soll man dann China nicht kritisieren dürfen?

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/a...-11901201.html
    If people were meant to pop out of bed in the morning, we'd all sleep in toasters.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    My country was often invaded - Sweden, Russia, Germany than Soviet Union.
    Nowadays it's independent, thank God.

  8. #328
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Here are countries which the English never invaded.

    http://media1.ntvmsnbc.com/j/NTVMSNB...liz.hlarge.jpg

  9. #329
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I just wonder: is there any country which never invaded anyone, even in its tribal stage?

  10. #330
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    The Netherlands have their share of rubbish, of evil. They too have a list of much evil.many wrongs, wars, etc. Is there nation, people, tribe or group that does not have such a list?


    EDIT: oh, Liliana already posted that sort of response. I didn't see it


  11. #331
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Canadian territory has not been invaded in its entire history. Nor have we invaded anyone. But we are a small country isolated from everyone except the U.S. so that is understandable. However when we were a British colony there were a couple of wars between the British, French, and Americans on what is now Canadian soil.
    Puesto así, que piola! Hubo guerras pero Canadá todavía no existía. Tampoco hubo invasiones, los colonos brotaron de la tierra como los hongos, por la humedad del aire.

  12. #332
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    The formation of the current Saudi state was achieved through numerous campaigns and invasions that began with the capture of Riyadh in 1902 and ended in 1934 with the Saudi-Yemeni war. The same, more so, applied to the first Saudi state (1744-1818) and applied to a smaller extant to the second Saudi state (1818-1891). The current Kingdom has annexed the entire Emirate of Shammar in central Arabia, the Kingdom of Hejaz in western Arabia, Idrisid Aseer and parts of Yemen in south Arabia and territories nominally belonging to the Ottomans in the Persian Gulf littoral. Since its unification in 1932, the country has not been invaded by any foreign power.

  13. #333
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by luis masci View Post
    Yeah, in 1982 my country Argentina, invaded UK.
    Well… as a matter of fact it was 2 small islands belonging to UK.
    … and located about 10.000 miles from UK.
    …but only 400 miles from Argentina
    ….and situated on Argentinean sea.
    UK recuperated these islands after a short war.
    Sorry, now I think about it, I’m not sure it was really what we can say properly an invasion.
    The Falkland Islands!
    My teacher taught me there's many sheep in there. Was I happy when I found out its Flag and Coat of Arms has a little sheep.
    In the end, the then Pope ruled in favor of the UK. Thank you teacher for teaching me things!

    Corrigez-moi toutes mes erreurs s'il vous plaît, amis. Merci beaucoup!

  14. #334
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    My country first invaded Frisia and Saxony and later went on to conquer huge swathes of western Europe, leading to the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire and France. More recently it invaded England in 1688 and the Stadtholder William III placed himself on the throne of England and caused quite a stir in Ireland. It was also a Pyrrhic victory for the Dutch, because it meant that the Dutch had to pay for two armies from that moment until the Dutch army slowly became the English army. This event marked the beginning of the decline of the Dutch empire.

    Furthermore, it invaded the America's and founded the New Netherlands and New Amsterdam, what later would become part of New England and New York City. In it's 80 years' war, it invaded many Spanish (most of the were actually part of the Portuguese Crown) colonies in Asia and the America's, such as Ceylon, Formosa, Pernambuco and what later became the Dutch East Indies.

    The country was invaded by (among others) the French under Napoleon (however it can be said that the French were just invited), which led to the introduction of civil law and many other social innovations. In 1940 the Netherlands were invaded by the Germans, which led to the introduction of universal health care (the system was finally abolished in 2006), the murder of many Jewish people and some geographic changes. We hold no grudge against the Germans or French, since this were short-lived occupation, since we understand that the people who invaded our country one day are not the same as the people living today, since most of the people were not negatively affected for a more permanent period of time and since the Germans effectively murdered those who were, since the Germans realize, regret, and have learned the size of the atrocities committed and since we have now learned how to live with each other.

    Even though Frisia was mostly conquered by the Franks, it still existed in the 16th century and voluntarily joined the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. Nowadays most Frisians hold a grudge against the display of cultural imperialism by the Netherlands. This leads me to conclude that long-lasting occupations are much harder to overcome than short-lived occupation, no matter how benign or malign it is.

  15. #335
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by luitzen View Post
    Nowadays most Frisians hold a grudge against the display of cultural imperialism by the Netherlands. This leads me to conclude that long-lasting occupations are much harder to overcome than short-lived occupation, no matter how benign or malign it is.
    How so? What are the manifestations of Dutch imperialism?

  16. #336
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I'm talking about cultural imperialism. It means that you consider your own culture more important than others. For example, most Dutch people from the west of the country will tell people that speak a minority language, to talk "normal Dutch like everyone else". They will make minorities believe that their language and culture is less valuable than the Dutch language and the culture from the randstad area, even though the regions where minority languages are spoken are much more peaceful, much less violent and face much less crime. They will strip minorities from their natural resources and pump it in their "capital district" so that the minorities will think that they're poor and dependent on the central government. They will say that the natural resources of the Netherlands are worth €120 billion when there's nothing in the soil around Amsterdam while people in the north of the country see the value of their houses plummet due to man-caused earthquakes. During an economic crisis they will tell you how regional television and language education is a waste of money while they will not increase funding again once the crisis is over.

    And this happens everywhere, not only in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands, the province with the highest GDP per capita is Groningen, while the people living there are among the poorest in the country. The people in the north of the country think they're really poor and the west is rich, however they would take the majority of the Dutch natural reserves with them and less than 10% of the population, would they become independent.

    In Belgium, the Flemish have lived under the yoke of the French for generations and have replaced the culture and language of Brussels. Now they're wondering why they should keep sending lalala-money to the south.

    Maybe we should rename Spain to the Confederation of Catalonia and Basque Country, because if you don't live there, chances are big you're getting lalala-money from there.

    Largest ports in Belgium: Antwerp and Brussels-Zeebrugge, largest port in Spain: Valencia, 3rd largest port in France: Duinkerken. There's a pattern here; minorities don't need the central government.

  17. #337
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Here are countries which the English never invaded.

    http://media1.ntvmsnbc.com/j/NTVMSNB...liz.hlarge.jpg
    To be fair to us (), quite a few of those countries weren't actually available for invasion at the time we went about invading
    Edit yourself ~ its less embarassing than someone else doing it for you,

  18. #338
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by coconutpalm View Post
    China has a recorded history of about 6,000 years. In its long long history, it had invaded other countries or had many smaller countries as its tributary states. On the other hand, since 1840, China became a semi-feudal and semi-colonial country and China was to a large extent invaded. In the World War II, it was invaded by Japan.
    Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is very bad. What is worse, many people in both countries loathe the other country.
    To my knowledge, Russia was invaded – I mean, up to the state of losing independence – once, but for long, by Mongols in 12xx, and they nominally ruled the country for about two centuries, from time to time collecting some wealth from people or murdering them. Those wild times were times of frequent incursion, anyway. In its turn, the history of Russia since the Mongol rule was the history of Russian invasions into other lands. The scholarly question is how severe was the Mongol invasion for Rus; naturally, for many this question is not scholarly, but rather nationalistic. What amuses me is that people who promote the national feeling would often make the invasion look rather more strong than less, though it may vary.

    As for more recent events, there was invasion by French troops in 1812 (we call it the war of 1812) and invasion by Germans in 1941 (in Russian, this war is called 'Great'). To my mind, both invasions are now gone events, not already there, although there are political activists, including those inside governmental institutions, who seek to solve their modern-day problems by calling attention to the latter war. My suggestion is that in China these things might happen in a similar way. Wars are to be forgotten the natural way as quickly as the warriors become old (from the moral point of view, didn't they battle for the sake of forgetting the war?). So, if something like grudge goes on about the invasions nowadays, search for the problems that manifest themselves this way now.
    Quote Originally Posted by coconutpalm View Post
    It seems that you have all had put the bitter history behind, and TIME seems to play the part. You forget it, and then it is long long time ago.
    BUT, many many victims still live today without receiving an apology from the Japanese government. That's why Chinese people don't want to forgive Japan.
    Some of my grandparents, when they were children, risked death during the second world war, yet I have nothing in me against Germany. The thing is, we're all humans, all stupid, all cruel and all bad. Warring and concentration camps are not in any way a distinctly specific trait of Germans or Japans, all may build them when time comes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brioche View Post
    Governments frequently encourage fear of their neighbours to distract the people's attention from internal problems.
    I'd say, people distract their attention themselves, governments would not be able to. Then, of course, people blame governments because they don't wish to blame themselves. It's all in the human nature.

    ======================

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakro View Post
    That's why many Finns (more or less hidden) hate or despise the Russians, even if the invasion wasn't a fault of the Russian people but the communist system.
    Totally disagree. How invasion can be not at fault of people?! What communistic can be about people who oppress other people?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakro View Post
    I wish you understood that the Finns who are against the Russians are in fact against the Soviet Union, not against ordinary Russian people.
    Quote Originally Posted by emma42 View Post
    Just as I know that people after WW2 came to understand that they had been fighting against the Nazis and not ordinary Germans, many of whom settled in this country, having been prisoners of war.
    It is a great and dangerous logical fault to talk like this. It is the same logical fault that the nazis made. It was ordinary Russians who inhabited the Soviet Union, and it was ordinary Germans who fought for the Third Reich; both empires were comprised of nobody but people (whom else?). Just ordinary people like you and I.
    Last edited by Ёж!; 18th August 2013 at 5:03 AM.

  19. #339
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ёж! View Post
    Totally disagree. How invasion can be not at fault of people?! What communistic can be about people who oppress other people?!
    This is a little bit off-topic, but let me explain myself in a paragraph. If I look a bit more carefully at the Russian history in the beginning of the twentieth century, I notice the following: the fact that the Bolshevik rulers happened to pronounce the agenda of communism is the least important in all the story. The factual details – murders, oppression, ignorance, stupidity etc – don't depend on this fact a little bit. People just didn't care about details of philosophy, they hurried to realize their right to murder. Then later, in subsequent decades, most people never cared for communism in Russia, this is why it couldn't happen (and didn't). But, you could find, for example, short stories by Teffi to see what was the state of the common minds in the Tsarist Russia just before the first world war: it was the state of self-oppression and no-thought. This state of minds had not changed principally during the first world war, only the problems became stronger and, probably, more action-demanding. Demanding what action? Of course, stupid. I'm certain, quite the same should happen under the agenda of devoutness and christian love, if the tsar continued the rule after the war.
    Last edited by Ёж!; 18th August 2013 at 5:10 AM.

  20. #340
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by coconutpalm View Post
    China has a recorded history of about 6,000 years. In its long long history, it had invaded other countries or had many smaller countries as its tributary states. On the other hand, since 1840, China became a semi-feudal and semi-colonial country and China was to a large extent invaded. In the World War II, it was invaded by Japan.
    Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is very bad. What is worse, many people in both countries loathe the other country.

    Here arise my questions (a lot ):

    Many countries have a history as invador or occupied territory (or both) of their neighbours.

    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?

    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?

    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?

    To which point can this country be considered having "overcome this history", as an invador or an invadee?

    You can choose one specific question to answer, but please keep in mind that it's not an invitation to air old grievance.


    At last, I want to say "thank you" to Chaska, Emma and daoxunchang for providing me with excellent suggestions!


    Edit: I edited my post according to CrazyIvan's suggestion.Thank you! And I apologize if my previous words, clearly missending my intention as planned, offend anyone.





    THE NANKING MASSACRE: Fact Versus Fiction

    http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/9_S4.pdf

    New York Times January 4, 1938 Wireless to the New York Times. SHANGHAI, Jan. 3.
    American professors remaining at Ginling College in Nanking as foreign members of the Refugee Welfare Committee were seriously embarrassed to discover that they had been harboring a deserted Chinese Army colonel and six of his subordinate officers.
    The professors had, in fact, made the colonel second in authority at the refugee camp. The officers, who had doffed their uniforms during the Chinese retreat from Nanking, were discovered living in one of the college buildings: They confessed their identity after Japanese Army searchers found they had hidden six rifles, five revolvers, a dismounted machine gun and ammunition in the building.
    The ex-Chinese officers in the presence of Americans and other foreigners confessed looting in Nanking and also that one night they dragged girls into the darkness and the next day blamed Japanese soldiers for the attacks.




    Analyzing the “Photographic Evidence” of the Nanking Massacre

    http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf


    Some of the photos and videos, which obviously show restoration of order in the Safety Zone immediately after the seizure of Nanking, and also the documentary films which show the Chinese citizens rushing to get ID cards. These photos and films are made by the trustworthy sources, and coincided with the witness of over 100 Japanese correspondents dispatched to Nanking then.

    On the contrary, some of the pictures, which were claimed to have been taken at the time of the massacre, have never indicated the date, the places, and the names of photographers. Also, some of them are showing the entirely different things, and others are forged ones. Even the Chinese cannot have proved the Nanking Massacre.

    ...

    In fact, it estimated that a far larger number of 65,000,000 people had been victimized in China, is still existing under the dictatorial political system, and still persecuting minorities and committing human right violations ceaselessly. Especially in Tibet, more than 1,200,000 people, corresponding to roughly 20% of the total population, were massacred since being unfairly annexed to Communist China in 1955.

    Even now, the people in Tibet are still abused, and their cultures are being destroyed. The very Communist China declared that the problem of Tibet is a problem relating to domestic affairs and refused the interference of the foreign nations. On the other hand, the CCP is loudly denouncing the Nanking Massacre which had been insisted on its happening more than seventy years ago, but this is not even clearly defined.




    Other reference source:

    OBSERVATIONS ON THE FILM JOHN RABE

    http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/61_S4.pdf



    There Is Not a Single “Real Photograph” Documenting the Nanking Incident

    http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/42_S4.pdf
    If people were meant to pop out of bed in the morning, we'd all sleep in toasters.
    Please correct my Eng.

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