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Thread: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

  1. #61
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Does a "free democratic country" REALLY exist or is it just a myth?

    Wow, interesting to note in that article that now after having apologised 18 times, the history books in Japan will be rewritten to put the darkest pages of it in the past.

  2. #62
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    As I said in an earlier post, Japan has only apologized "for any harm that was caused" as though it was just another conflict.

    If you read the article, you will note:

    "In a procession of cases brought by groups including former prisoners of war, "comfort women", orphans and victims of germ warfare, there has been scant acknowledgement of their plight and no offers of compensation."

    Not to mention the regular visits to the shrine where many war criminals are buried.

    Contrast this with Germany, where West German Chancellor Willy Brandt fell prostrate to his knees in front of a Holocaust memorial. Germany recognizes the crimes of its former government, the gas chambers, the medical experiments, the massacres of civilians, etc. The Japanese gov't refuses to acknowledge and apologize for any of these. Germany has also paid billions of dollars in direct compensation to victims, whereas Japan feels it has no obligations to under the San Francisco Treaty.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Thank you for the link, cyanista. I do not agree that the author expressing "his doubts about their sincerity" is "another thing". It is highly germane. The reported apologies, contemporaneous with the disregard for people's plight and the honouring of the memories of war criminals, make any verbal apology null and void, surely?

    Given the reparations made by, for example, Germany, it would seem that the rest of the world (certainly anywhere I can think of immediately) simply cannot understand the attitude of the Japanese government. The link mentions that a large majority of respondents to a survey in Japan want more dialogue about the matter in apparent contrast to its government. This begs the question of whether the government's reluctance is really a matter of culture, as many think. Does the government adhere to/practise/live in a different culture from its people?
    Last edited by emma42; 29th June 2006 at 2:39 AM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?

    Thailand and Burma, they used to invade us sevaral times although none of their invasions were very successful but later, when the British were finding colonies in Asia, we helped the British to invade Burma. Now they are a very poor country and we despise them and lots of us look down on them. (Basically most of the Burmese people don't know that lots of Thais hate them for no particular reasons.)

    Thailand (Siam, did. Thailand's never invaded anyone. lol) invaded the sultanates in the Malay Peninsula and weaker countries such as Cambodia and Laos like once every 100 years during the 13th until 17th centuries and our claim over Malaysia was finally ended only in 1901.

    I don't think the Malay politicians and their leader like us very much. There are lots of politicians in Malaysia who want us to let Pattani become a Darus Salaam or a Sultanate state. I don't know if this is true, but lots of them support the militant groups in Pattani to liberate the 4 Muslim dominated, Jawi speaking provinces. Narathiwas, Pattani, Yala, and Stul.

    If you go to Cambodia and take a tour in Angkor Wat, they will tell you how we burned the city and looted their wealth. They still hate us.



    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?

    Yes, for Burma. No, for Thailand. Lots of us don't forgive them and we try to make the situation of their country worse and worse. (Again, although they don't remember anything anymore but we do.)

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?

    We must change people's attitude.

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?

    America and the UK.

    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?

    It has been more a few centuries now and we still hate them. It depends on people.

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?

    No. If only 2 countries or 3 can't deal with their own problems, how could others achieve it?

    To which point can this country be considered having "overcome this history", as an invador or an invadee?

    People don't talk their previous wars and don't hate each others without reasons.




    Do I agree with those invasions?
    Our invasion of Burma during the late 1800s.... yes, it was for our own benefit and independency, if we did not, we would've not been the only uncolonized country in South and Southeast Asia.
    Our invasion of the sultanates from the 1300s to 1600s,...yes, we just saw the fall of India, which is not so far across the Andaman Sea and felt threatened by Islam. The rise of Islam in among the Jawi and Malay speaking states was not what we want to see.
    Our invasion of the Khmer Empire..... yes, it was because of the wealth we took when we destroyed Angkor Wat that we used to build our cities. If we didn't, someone else will anyway.



    I admit we did, and I feel no regrets that my ancestors'd invaded other countries. It was all for those who will live after their death. How could I feel bad and unthanksful to what they sacrificed they lives for us?
    Last edited by Pivra; 29th June 2006 at 4:35 AM.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Pivra, thank you for that interesting post. But why do you think that outside assistance could not help these "2 or 3 countries" to start to resolve their differences. Mediators and impartial outsiders have done this sort of thing for centuries, from countries to individuals. Often with success.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince
    That is what is happening in East Asia. Japan only admits that there was a war, and apologizes 'if they caused any harm', but they fail to recognize the
    atrocities they committed on civilians and POWs. And high-ranking government officials continue to visit graves where WWII soldiers are buried.
    in fact, most Japanese history textbooks in schools only talk about the war for just 1,2 pages. some textbooks don't even mention, and some glorifies the invasion.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42
    Pivra, thank you for that interesting post. But why do you think that outside assistance could not help these "2 or 3 countries" to start to resolve their differences. Mediators and impartial outsiders have done this sort of thing for centuries, from countries to individuals. Often with success.
    I don't know much about the history of mediation, but when the US became a country, who else were there to write the Declaration? Now, there is no political conflicts between the 2 countries because both the UK and the US solved thier own problems. France wasn't even invited when the Declaration was written. Everything was done between the two countries.
    Last edited by Pivra; 29th June 2006 at 3:46 AM.

  8. #68
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    If any of you has ever had a look at my other posts in other threads, you can see clearly that I am not anti-Japanese, I'm anti-Japanese government.
    Two or three days ago, I watched a moving movie for a second time. It was set in China, several days before August 15, 1945, the unconditional surrender of Japan. Interestingly enough, the leading parts are of three nationalities: a rescued Chinese POW previously in Japanese camp, whose mother was killed in his face by a Japanese soldier, a Russian soldier, and a Japanese girl whose boyfriend was forced into the army by the end of the war.
    What the movie mainly tells us is that the people from the invaded country are definitely victims, and at the same time, the people from the invading country can be victims, but the wrongdoings can never be denied!

    Today's Japanese government stresses only on Hiroshima, but tries to forget the Nanjing massacre (300,000 deaths in 6 weeks) and many of its people, including those politicians pick up the idea that Japan was actually saving Chinese people. Hahaha! What a ridiculous joke!

    Am I being emotional again? Yes, I think so. I am trying to answer my own questions in the opening post:
    China invaded many other countries. Etcetera should remember the YUan dynasty.
    China was invaded by many other countries from 1840 to 1949.
    Without a sincere apology, I don't think Chinese people can ever forget the bitter history and can forgive.
    More and more sensible people in China are appealing both peoples to discuss the historical events in a sensible, sincere and understanding way, but they are not saying that "Hey, you can just forget it! it's the easiest way." I am for these people. When I post in the local forums, I always try my best to analyze, to be sensible, to tell my fellow people not to be over-emotional but practical.

    Almostfreebird, I am not an agitator or a propagandist. Nor was I brainwashed. I am not a communist but I definitely love my country. I am just stating the truth. I am 19 years old, I am trying to be sensible, can you cool down, and stop thinking that I am attacking you and your fellow citizens?

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Very well said, coconutpalm. You have clearly expressed your views and have not been offensive, in my view. You most certainly do not appear as an agitator or propagandist, but simply as someone who genuinely wants to put the past behind her, but needs the cooperation of the other party in order to do so. I am pleased to hear about both the people in China who want to discuss the matter, and the people in Japan who took part in the survey in the link so kindly provided for us.

  10. #70
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42
    I have made it quite clear that the issue I have with the Japanese government is the lack of an apology,(post 29) let alone reparations.
    i don't care about whether give China reparations or not, all i want is a sincere formal apology from the Japanese government, and state the truth of history (as close as possible) in their history textbooks

    when we were kids, if we did something bad, we would get spanked by our mothers, so that we remember not to do something like that again. however, Japan does not seem to remember, or want to remember their faults, it is very dangerous for Japan if they continue to hold this attitude, a person who does not remember the lessons he got, is likely to make the same mistakes again.
    Last edited by Tensai; 29th June 2006 at 4:18 AM.

  11. #71
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Didnt the Opium wars between China and Britain lead to an "invasion" of China by the British?
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  12. #72
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Yes, panjabigator. We generally consider Britain the first invadors. But why don't we hate Britain, America, Germany,Russia,France,etc., but we do hate Japan? Isn't it intersting? All the countries above except Japan truly admit their mistakes in the past.
    As tensai pointed out, what we want is just a sincere apology. If a country doesn't learn something from its past wrongdoings, it's dangerous both for others and itself.

  13. #73
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Ah, Mexico... It stands as a solitary figure in the sense that it has never carried out a successful invasion
    (as far as I know, but how far is that, really? No one knows...)
    The one country I am sure that Mexico did try to invade was the erstwhile Republic of Texas. Then, enter Sam Huston. Remember the Alamo, and all that jazz...
    Back in its pre-Colombus history, the nations within what is now known as central Mexico would invade each other every other Tuesday, it seems, never holding the territories for long... Until the Aztecs (Mexicas) arrived in the scene and "smooshed" everyone else and imposed their order, there was no Mexico. The Aztecs invented Mexico. And then the Spanish came and "smooshed" them into oblivion....
    I think that, even now, the defeatist and despondent attitude prevalent in many areas of the Mexican culture (mainly the State) might be traced back to the very definite Spanish conquest and almost obliteration of the Mexicans over five hundred years ago.
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  14. #74
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Are the native/indigenous Mexicans still upset over their losses?
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    As I read the sincere statements in this thread, questions occur to me, and I don't have good or comfortable answers:

    1- If politicians are insincere, as most seem to be, can they give sincere apologies?
    2- Does it matter if a politician feels genuine remorse for the actions of those who lived, and often died, before his or her birth?
    3- Can one apologize sincerely and usefully for the actions of other people?
    4- If young people today feel aggrieved by the actions of others, two or three or more generations ago, should they look for apologies from those who caused the offense, or from the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of the wrongdoers?
    5-Should citizens of an invaded country look to the descendents of the invaders for honest apologies, when that same invaded country has invaded, and continues to occupy other nations? Is there a need for equal sincerity by all?
    6- Why does a government deny history? Why does it allow children to be taught things that are not true?

    Obviously some of these questions might be applied to China and Japan, but they could also be applied to my own country.
    I am not interested in fomenting a polemic in favor of any government here. I mistrust most politicians.

    There may be deep cultural differences in perception of the importance of these questions. Some of my ancestors were murdered by a government in another country. I would take no satisfaction if the current government of that country were to apologise. That wouldn't reverse the murders. It wouldn't speak to the feelings or the indifference of current inhabitants of that country. It would, for me, provide no justice and no
    recompense. The only thing I would wish for is education of the current generation, in order that such horrors not be repeated.

    Some many years ago, the government of my own country was fully responsible for the murder of some of my children's ancestors. A later government apologised. That did nothing to undo the past. It may have helped change the way history is taught here. That I applaud.
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  16. #76
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I think the point is, in relation to Japan, that the government is not simply ignoring the past, but is actively compounding the offence by teaching untruths and part-truths, denying any wrongdoing and paying homage to the memories of war criminals.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I don't think the still living and suffering "comfort women" can ever forgive those that raped them, but a sincere apology from their offsprings do matter and help.
    Does it matter if a politician feels genuine remorse for the actions of those who lived, and often died, before his or her birth?
    Yes, it matters. Whenever I read the report about the Germany prime minister that got down to his knees to apologize, I am deeply moved and loathe even more the current Prime minister of Japan.

    Can one apologize sincerely and usefully for the actions of other people?
    Yes, I think so. A Japanese monk travelled alone for two years to sites where Japan had done the most cruel things to Chinese, knelt down, and prayed. Great man!

    If young people today feel aggrieved by the actions of others, two or three or more generations ago, should they look for apologies from those who caused the offense, or from the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of the wrongdoers?
    Traditionally, we think so. We even seeked revenge. Today most of us think it silly things, but what we want is just an "apology"!

    Why does a government deny history? Why does it allow children to be taught things that are not true?
    I don't know. Ask Koitsumi.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I fear I am stepping into dangerous territory here and I have very little knowledge about these things, but I would like to ask, with the greatest of respect, whether the reluctance of the Japanese government to apologise sincerely is due to a sense of what some might call "honour" or the cultural imperative to never admit wrong?

    This is a sincere question and not an accusation.

  19. #79
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Yes, it's a dangerous question
    Actually, I believe the Orient people are all less inclined to admit wrong, at least in public. Although traditionally, we are taught not to tell lies and apologize whenever you FEEL you have hurt/offend others, we are also deeply influenced by the "save face" norm.
    As for Japan, I think it's more complicated. They have their Bushi tradition, they were defeated in the World War, they think they were invaded by America after the War, many of them were/are taught that the old Japan was saving Chinese and Koreans, they have a really amazing recovery and Japan is one of the richest and strongest countries in the world...
    Again, I am not a Japanese. I can't speak for them.

    As I said before, China invaded many countries in the past, too. However, when I refer to materials, I find that we willingly admit it rather than deny it.
    Then again, in those materials, I sense a "dismissive" air. NOt that we are not aware of the sufferings of the invaded countries, just that ... hard to say. I will try to state my ideas as clearly as possible:
    The invador tend to forget the history more easily than the invaded. However, if the invador are defeated, it's most likely that both parties keep remembering the bitter past and hating each other.
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42
    I fear I am stepping into dangerous territory here and I have very little knowledge about these things, but I would like to ask, with the greatest of respect, whether the reluctance of the Japanese government to apologise sincerely is due to a sense of what some might call "honour" or the cultural imperative to never admit wrong?

    This is a sincere question and not an accusation.
    I don't have much knowledge either and I don't want to talk like a glib, so I put some useful link.
    How about "A New definition of hypocricy"?
    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html
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