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Thread: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

  1. #81
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I understand what you are saying, almostfreebird, and thank you for the links. I am just learning about these matters.

  2. #82
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I admit before hand that I am trying to compress many thoughts into as brief a form as possible so I hope any lack of continuity does not trouble anyone nor do I wish to offend anyone by my post.
    So many countries have invaded and been invaded. It is only a recent phenomenon for countries to apologize for past atrocities. It is not uncommon for countries to”bury the hatchet” even without an apology. The many conflicts Western Europe’s conquest of various parts of the Americas, Africa and Asia seem long ago but the legacy remains. “To the victor goes the spoils” and also the victor writes the history. Has Turkey apologized to the Armenians? To some Turkish eyes the Armenians in Turkey helped the enemy Russia in that conflict.
    Has China apologized to the Uyghur (Eastern Turkistan), The Tibetans, etc.? Korea and Japan still dispute some unpopulated islands as their territory for fishing rights. Russia and Japan dispute other islands. The communist rule throughout Eastern Europe and Asia and their successors have not apologized. The WWII conflict not only has people in Slavic countries who still hold a grudge talk to people who were alive at that time in the west, there are still people who hold a grudge. Okinawa which was invaded and occupied by Japan as a result of a request by the Okinawans to stop a Chinese invasion was then held by the US from the end of WWII until the 1970s, with much ado Jimmy Carter “returned Okinawa to Japan” In the US the native population was decimated and the promises to them were always broken, Africans were enslaved, many Europeans were indentured servants and later discriminated against not only people of other colors. The Japanese Americans were put in internment camps, There was discrimination against the Jews and Irish. Fortunately much if not most of these injustices have been corrected, unfortunately some of this legacy remains although it is no longer sanctioned by the government and it is in the process of constant improvement. As for the Japan-China-Korea issue. One needs to take into account, although as we all know atrocities were committed, what the average Japanese person believes about this dark history and the general attitude of the people at that time. The Meiji dynasty (1868-1912) was the main unification of modern Japan it was at this point that Japan ended its isolation from the rest of the world. The Japanese began to immigrate to Brazil, the US, Peru among other places. The Emperor took on a godlike importance and people felt an almost religious fervor of patriotism.
    European colonization was still in full force at the time of WWII. The leaders of Japan lead the people to believe that they were liberating Asia from the “evils” of European control. Of course the Philippines, China, Korea and the Solomon Islands among others may not share this point of view. Also the 武士道 Bushido code which among other things calls for suicide before dishonor is a factor for a country that, was defeated (unconditional surrender) given a constitution written by the Americans and the prohibition against forming a viable army ( as I look at my souvenir ashtray labeled made in occupied Japan). Some Americans still remember the 25 mile death march to Bataan yet Japan is the US’ closest ally in Asia. Just a note the 武士道 Bushido code started after Japan’s unsuccessful war with Tang Dynasty China and Silla (part of current Korea).I think and hope that we can all bury the hatchet with or without an apology. In War and invasions all parties are victims.

  3. #83
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I think and hope that we can all bury the hatchet with or without an apology. In War and invasions all parties are victims.
    Totally agree. And I have said such things in my previous posts.
    However, if you don't cure the old trauma, can you really start a new life? I really doubt it, let alone that we are not just talking about two countries. We are talking about people Those living "Comfort women" and pre-POWs in the World War II are too old and weak to start a new life. Their last desire is a simple but sincere apology.
    The apology thing emerges only recently and there are many many political and economical factors working. True. But things that are not traditional are not necessarily bad.

    BTW, I will not comment on the link provided by Almostfreebird because it's off-topic, but I reserve my right to depise such a politically-biased website.

    Edit: not to have you misunderstand me.
    Last edited by coconutpalm; 29th June 2006 at 8:29 AM.

  4. #84
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I actually don't want to join this WWII miniature, but , Japan had no intentions to LIBERATE nobody from European colonization. Why did Japan INVADE THAILAND???????? Why? We aren't anyone's colony. Why?


    ps. This is just to some people who don't accept the fact that Japan didnt try to help anyone during WWII not all Japanese tho.
    Last edited by Pivra; 29th June 2006 at 7:28 AM.

  5. #85
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    What a long thread, I read it through and decided to reply from all the begining, since I happened to have a little of knowledge about all these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by coconutpalm
    Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is extremely bad. What is worse, the peoples in both countries HATE each other, or at least, loathe each other.
    I would like to remind you that there are some very dangerous perception you had in these sentences, which actually frightened me while I read this.

    The government relationship between China and Japan is extremly bad?
    you may say that the relationship between N. Korea and Japan is extremely bad. Or the relationship between Iran and America is extremely bad,or another example, Isareal and Palestanian. But China and Japan has some more delicated relationship.

    Aside from this issue, Japanese business and government aid has been contribute their efforts in China, though they consider to suspend or decrease the amout. Two government with bad relationship cannot negotiate with some deals like that.( I mean, aides.)

    I will assume, you government is trying hard to make people believe that you two have bad relationship, however, they are hiddenly the truth the Japan actually has benefited China at the same time.

    The people in both country hate each other?

    You can always find some exceptions in the public. My observation is that Chinese people have a lot to talk about this "hate" feelings but the Japanese do not talk little about it, or, they do not really have any particular And hate is such a strong word I would avoid. Also, you should consider what the cause of this "dislike" feeling is. I would do my brief summary and please correct me if you find the opposite.

    Chinese, have disliked Japanese due to the history.
    I am happy to read from the following article that you limited your resentment feeling to Japanese Government, but not general Japanese people.
    But Japanese, the general "dislike" feeling to Chinese is against toward the Chinese immigrants(partially illegal) in Japan cities. They cause troubles that Japanese government can barely handled.

    Did you see the difference?
    Last edited by CrazyIvan; 29th June 2006 at 8:06 AM.

  6. #86
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Another reason given by some people to explain we Chinese's persistent request for a sincere apology is that we have "a persecution complex". This is just an outrageous accusation. Can the referring to what has "really" happened be fitted into this phrase "persecution complex", which according to dictionary.reference.com means "the feeling of being persecuted especially without basis in reality"?
    I believe most of you know about the phrase "Yellow Peril". We were dubbed this just because we have a really large population. How should we call this? I say I would not call this a persecution complex because it is understandable. But what's behind this and what this would lead to is most worrisome.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Thanks for your post, Ivan.
    I think I have made some of my points not as clear as intended. I apologize for that.
    Surely China and Japan are closely related, but that doesn't mean that the relationship between them are good, or near good, but I'm ready to admit that maybe "extremly" is a "extremly" strong word that I shouldn't have used it. ON the other hand, it's subjective to decide to which extent is the extreme end, isn't it. I will adopt your suggestion and change it to "very" later, though. Thank you.

    The people in both country hate each other?
    My fault, I should have said" the people in both country loathe the other country, not necessarily the people."

    I will assume, you government is trying hard to make people believe that you two have bad relationship, however, they are hiddenly the truth the Japan actually has benefited China at the same time.
    Not true. Many many people in the world know that the two countries have a bad relationship.
    And as I noted before, many of us are trying to be sensible, and natuarlly we know the fact that Japanese businesses contribute their effort to China's development, as other businesses from many other coutries. We thank them for that, but should we be grateful? Why don't they compensate the "comfort women" and previous POWs?

    I am happy to read from the following article that you limited your resent feeling to Japanese Government, but not general Japanese people.
    I didn't "limit" my feeling. I have been having no personal dislike towards Japanese people, as you can see from my posts in this thread and many other threads as well.

    And you didn't answer my questions. Taiwan was invaded by Japan, and I know many Taiwaness feel close to it, including Chen Shuibian. Seemingly you overcome that history easily, so could you please tell me how and why? Thank you.


    BTW, we generall think Taiwan is a province, not a country, but that's completely another issue.

  8. #88
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Since you asked the following questions, I would like to answer briefly.

    Yes, if you consider Taiwan as a entity, we have been invaded several times(Kidding:So good/bad that we never had a chance to invade someone )

    Since the 16th century the Portugese discovered this island, we have constantly occupied by different western countries. Northern part belonged to Spanish and Southern part belong to Dutch. However, a Chinese general drove Dutch away and re-established a base (to against Ching Dynasty.)

    Ching Empire invade to destroy this small government again, and ruled it until the day they ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895.

    We Taiwanese held a series of uprising right after Japanese army landed on our island. In my county, we were pround of a hard fight cause the death of a Japanese royal member.

    Of course, all these events had be quelled and the Japan started their occupation in Taiwan.

    We have tried various way to against Japanese Occupation, especially the unreasonalbe laws and regualtion. The most success uprising is not through physical confrontation, but through the protest, demostration, and petition to the parlimant in Tokyo.( at that moment.)

    I would like to set this as an example since Japan is the last invasion.( well, if KMT is another ivasion or not is highly debated, so, I would just finished here and start to answer your questions.)

    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?
    The subsequent relations after Japanese leave this island have various changes.

    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?
    Yes, I do believe so.

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?
    I cannot say from national basis since I am neither political figures nor active in politic events. Yet, Taiwan, as a coutry or not, is still debatable, so, "national" since a far-fetched word for me.:P

    However, from individual basis, I know a bit. At least, a frequent contact with your target nation is necessary. I used to dislike Japanese too, for those they have done to Taiwan. however, the more I learn about their history and culture, the more I can talk with Japanese people. The more I can talk to them, the more I think I can understand the way they act.

    (For example, do you know that, in Japan, right before the war, there is a huge debate about, Should they start the war? The prime minister of that time is constantly changed and even some of them are assissinated by Japanese Army, who really wanted this war.)

    This is an accumulated process, and it takes time. But if you hold the attitude that "I hate Japanese and I never would like to get contact with them." Then this efforts will never succeed.

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?
    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?


    I think most Taiwanese do not dislike Japanese anymore. That is three generation. From my grandpa to me.

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?
    I have to say, Taiwanese people are born to be flexible and pragmatic, and this mentality truly help.

    No matters how great hatred we had in betwen Japan and Taiwan, we have put it aside and create economic development together. We therefore foster closer relationship in between. Plus, we both have American Army base on our territory during Korea and Vietnam war, which allow us to share a lot in common for the following generation.


  9. #89
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Ivan, you really hit the nail on the head: Contact each other!
    It was unimaginable that we can peacefully discuss this issue in the past. However, now we want to settle the problem rather than continue living in hatred/dislike for each other. I think it should attribute to the more frequent contacts with each other.

    But I have to differ with you somewhere:The more I can talk to them, the more I think I can understand the way they act.
    True, but I can never understand the way they acted.

    Thank you very much, Ivan. the posts seemed to getting off-topic because we are shifting our attention to Sino-Japan relationship, quite on the contrary to what I intended. I was considering to ask a Mod for help because my several attempts to reverse it didn't work.
    Now I think we can continue this thread, peacefully.

  10. #90
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I would like to further develop the topic into the recent turbulance in between KMT and DPP, the two major political parties in Taiwan. And cause of this is actually related to this topic.

    While KMT army boarded on this island in 1945, people were happy that the Japanese had gone, however, due to the incompetence of the KMT governor, it happened an uprising called 228 incident in 1947. This conflicts tore up the relationshp in between local Taiwanese and newly-immigrant Chinese population and the effects remain to nowadays.

    There have been three generations. We do not have direct victim of that incident in my family. However, I hear a lot of stories. I have to say, yes,from those stories, I can feel that people can hardly forget this kind of tragedy happening to their families, and can hardly forgive the "invader."

    But, please be noticed, KMT has public apologized for thier wrong-doing. However, this sentiment is still linger over the island.

    Why?

    ok, in my generation, in my daily life, I do not care about where my friends' family came from. And, actually, my parents would not care where their colleague come from as well. Our political identity would only be show on the ballots in each election.

    However, parties do believe that manipulation in this sentiment is beneficial, or say, necessary to polls. They tried all the best to heat up this topic, which remind people again and again and some of them just cannot walk out of that agony.

    So, that is what I would like to point out. Be cautious about the news what the political parties/govenment/government-sponsored media trying to feed you. That is dangerous.

  11. #91
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielfranco
    Ah, Mexico... It stands as a solitary figure in the sense that it has never carried out a successful invasion
    (as far as I know, but how far is that, really? No one knows...)
    The one country I am sure that Mexico did try to invade was the erstwhile Republic of Texas. Then, enter Sam Huston. Remember the Alamo, and all that jazz...
    Back in its pre-Colombus history, the nations within what is now known as central Mexico would invade each other every other Tuesday, it seems, never holding the territories for long... Until the Aztecs (Mexicas) arrived in the scene and "smooshed" everyone else and imposed their order, there was no Mexico. The Aztecs invented Mexico. And then the Spanish came and "smooshed" them into oblivion....
    I think that, even now, the defeatist and despondent attitude prevalent in many areas of the Mexican culture (mainly the State) might be traced back to the very definite Spanish conquest and almost obliteration of the Mexicans over five hundred years ago.
    Do you think that if the descendants of Aztecs would come back to light (metaphoric) from that so-called oblivion, they would apologize to the other pre-Colombus tribes descendants that they "smooshed"?

    I don't think any country, state, nation, people can apologize non-stop for 100, 300 or 500 years. Said it once, take it and move on.
    I don't think any Spaniard would go to France and expect them to apologize for the Napoleonic Wars.
    If people are always attached to their past invasions (done or suffered)... There is no lesson learned. Just self-pity.
    Hold fast to dreams [...]

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Hi !
    here are just a few remarks.
    To be totally honest, I never really learn about Napoleonic invasions (we talk about "Napoleonic wars"). I "only" learned about what was happening inside France at that time (such a mess ! no more time at school to learn about what was happening outside!). And so I recently realised, traveling through Europe, that Napoleon is seen like an invader, an oppressor. In France, he's the one that brought "progress" (ie Republic, stable institutions, laws,...). So it can be hard for (some) French to "apologize" for napoleon's expansion policy.
    And to talk about the consequence of invasion on current relation/situation : a French region, the Alsace-Lorraine, was French before the WW1, german between the two WW, and French again since WW2. The result is that it has a specific legal status, with adaptated laws, to take into account the german heritage. Though, I'm not from that region, so I don't know how the inhabitants feel toward Germany.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxynet
    To be totally honest, I never really learn about Napoleonic invasions (we talk about "Napoleonic wars"). .
    I did. And I don't feel at all responsible for what that filthy imperialist did 200 years ago.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them....well, I have others." (Groucho Marx).

  14. #94
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    I was about to type that I feel no guilt about the British Empire, just disgust. But the fact is, my life is comfortable and materially rich, despite living on a low income, due to the fact that my ancestors (or, more likely, their bosses) stole the countries and bodies of others. I don't feel guilt exactly, but I cannot deny that I feel something approaching embarrassment.

  15. #95
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando

    Spain has been invaded by:

    All W Europe
    All Maghreb + Arabs
    All of Western Europe? I beg to differ, we haven't invaded anyone! At least not in modern history - "Spain" has not been invaded by "Ireland".

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42
    I understand what you are saying, almostfreebird, and thank you for the links. I am just learning about these matters.
    Emma42,

    RE: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html

    I'm no expert on these matters either but if i were you, I'd be very careful before taking this link's author's one sided opinion as fact. An excerpt:

    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html#chin0704

    There is a claim that China annexed Hong Kong in 1997 and is seeking the same result with regards Taiwan.... (see edit)

    If I remember my history, Hong Kong was Chinese territory annexed to the British at the end of the Opium wars, for a period close to 100 years. China didn't annex Hong Kong at all, rather, territory ceded/capitulated by them was restored to their government in 1997.

    I don't want to launch accusations but this one article sounds more like propanganda to me....

    Tatz.

    Edit. I had to delete the quotation as i have since found a copyright on the site concerned, so i have had to paraphrase it.
    Last edited by Tatzingo; 29th June 2006 at 2:05 PM.

  17. #97
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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neever
    All of Western Europe? I beg to differ, we haven't invaded anyone! At least not in modern history - "Spain" has not been invaded by "Ireland".
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
    Only a Spanish speaker. If you need an exact translation, wait for better opinions.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
    But it was a peaceful migration, not an invasion? And it is only legend, right?

    Tatz.

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by emma42
    I was about to type that I feel no guilt about the British Empire, just disgust. But the fact is, my life is comfortable and materially rich, despite living on a low income, due to the fact that my ancestors (or, more likely, their bosses) stole the countries and bodies of others. I don't feel guilt exactly, but I cannot deny that I feel something approaching embarrassment.
    I feel ashamed that we were such a nasty nation. Yet somehow proud that although we are such a small country we managed to do what we did, but ashamed as well. Definitely conflicting emotions!!

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    Re: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
    Ok, I'll agree with the ancient history part - that might be true, but when we were part of the British state it was because we had been invaded ourselves! I get very het up when I talk about that though, so I'm leaving my contribution there!

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