Yes. I dont think Modern India has invaded anyone.
Yes. I dont think Modern India has invaded anyone.
Correccions en qualsevol idioma sempre són agraïdes.
Interesting, cuchuflete. The same political force that you've shown in describing the Folk Islands War is playing a part in what is seen as a sudden surge in the number and size of protests in China against Japanese wartime aggression. As BBC and other western newsmedia have reported, there had scaresly been protests against Japan and Japanese people enough to occupy top stories prior to the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (around 1989). China experienced two Tiananmen Square Massacres (1976 and 1989). CCP (China Communist Party) took those incidents seriously and were afraid if they took no measures, their regime might soon be overthrown. So what they launched was a series of programs that would boost people's nationalism, their love of CCP, and allowing capitalistic economic systems to enter into Chinese economy, slowly, so as not to make people known that communisum was a bad choice and the very source of people's misery. At the same time they needed a scape goat, or a rival country, which was marked by CCP's diversionary motives:to turn people's eye from the economic division between the rich and poor, between the rich coastal area and the poor inland China; to divert people's blame for failing communist economy away from CCP. They were desperate for a scapegoat. That's the prime reason why Japan was targeted as their archrival and scapegoat. They totally rewritten their textbooks and exaggerated the size and number of casualties in the war. Nanjing Massacre's death toll that China claims was unsubstantiated, exaggerated, inflated number that is ten times larger that western scholars reported. Even though we Japanese feel guilty of such brutality having took place, but we cannot help sensing China's ulterior motives behind the number reported.Originally Posted by cuchuflete
China's patriotic education, even jingoistic education, is characterized by "hate Japan, hate Japan," which is a stark contrast to Japan's "live peacefully with other nations, hand in hand; together we will prosper." China teaches hate, but Japan teaches love.
Coconutpalm has said that Japan's history textbooks are "glorifying" Japan army's wartime aggresion, but in fact not. Japan is a free, democratic society, and each school has a right to choose its textbooks. In Tokyo Prefecture alone, the problematic textbook that is said to be "glorifying" the past act of Japan is adopted by less than 0.5% of the population. Japan is a country where freedom of expression is cherished.
Last edited by toscairn; 2nd July 2006 at 5:36 AM.
I have to apologize for my ignorance of both Japanese and Chinese languages. That weakness prevents me from reading the textbooks published in either country. I would not be surprised to find that many such texts, as those in my own country and in other countries, 'slant' the facts as much by omission as by what they do say.
I would welcome a brief citation from a common or popular Japanese textbook regarding the Nanjing Massacre, and would like to compare it to what an equivalent Chinese text has to say about events in Tibet.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if different countries present the same historical happenings in very different ways. For example, I would expect vastly different "factual" views of the continued Russian occupation of Japanese territory invaded towards the end of WW II.
That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.
The number of Japanese who HATE Chinese is quite small, much smaller, in fact, compared with Chinese opinion polls. We are taught in school to respect other peoples, regardless of nations.Originally Posted by coconutpalm
Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is extremely bad. What is worse, the peoples in both countries HATE each other, or at least, loathe each other.
The underlined part, is that what 新華社通信(Xinhua News Agency) is making you believe? As Wikipedia put it, "It is one of the two news agencies in the PRC, the other being the China News Service, and is among the premier world news agencies." It is regrettable that in China, where there's no freedom of speech allowed, there are only two newsagencies. It's beyond imagination for us people of free and democratic nations, but it might be quite natural for a country which saw no democratic regime all throughout its long history. To quote Wikipedia further: Some critics of Xinhua therefore consider it to be an instrument of state-sponsored propaganda. Reporters Without Borders has called it "the world's biggest propaganda agency" That means, if I understand the Wikipedia article correctly, that every news you learn is controlled by the state-owned firm. Besides, the famous Google filter which hampers all the search results dealing with topics unfavorable to CCP. All websites which declare politically motivated statements have to get permissions from the authority. All those conditions combined will inevitably even out people's opinions, wipe out diversities, and eventually dictate what people should think and how to act. No wonder that every time Chinese people claim something, they sound quite the same whatever people whatever occasion. Their opinions are doomed to converge themselves into a particular fixed idea. Social conditions, political conditions made them so.
I wonder...if Castellano and his people can be immensely proud of their so-called achievements (read: atrocities) why can't the Japanese be proud of their accomplishments in mainland China? Food for thought.Originally Posted by castellano
The fact is, Japan did offer reparations for the damage caused to China. Japan has paid a substantial amount of money as reparations to Dutch, Indonesia, Korea and etc. Chairman Mao Zedong declined Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka's offer for reparations. It is believed that there had been an agreement among the few superpowers not to ask for reparations from the former Axis, in view of the cause of Nazi gaining power, which was an astronomical amount of reparations imposed by France. Besides, China around 1972 was struggling to "save face" by getting admitted as international superpower. The relation between China and the Soviet Union was tense, so that China started trying to improve its relation with US and Japan. Then came the normilization of diplomatic ties between the two countries (1972).Originally Posted by emma42
Also this is important to note that, Japan gave an enormous amount of money to China as ODA. More than 3 trillion yen are given to China, which is the fact almost no Chinese people somehow don't know. That is because the Chinese Press are government controlled, and they don't want its people to know that Japan have been showing remorse, and offering a helping hand for compensation. That is to use it as a political leverage, to be exercised in case of political or economic tension between the two countries.
This is a very timely post, and I take great interest in it. But I guess my opinion is quite far from being objective, although I try to be, since I am Japanese.
I think in both Japan and China, (and in Korea, to expand the topic a bit), people who have settled their minds over the issue of previous coloniazation, mass murders, massacres, vicious exploitation in our past ARE already over it. The relationship amongst these three countries, or to be more precise, China x Japan or Korea x Japan, have improved quitea bit over the years. The contstant flow of Japanese tourists to China is an asset to a Chinese municipality and the country's prosperity, and vice versa. We also send out and welcome in innumerable exchange students per year between the countries.
However, when things get a little political, the fact that Japan once dominated East Asia is a too-yummy-to-ignore candy for China. The ongoing battle between the PMs regarding the Yasukuni Shrine has brought another cunning political stragety of China to surface. In my opinion, China is overreacting. Japan and Koizumi have admitted to the war crimes we committed in the past and given official and public apologies. The whole country is aware why China detests our PM's custom of visiting the shrine at issue, and have considered and discussed removing the top-calss war criminals from the shrine, to appease the tension between China and Japan. However, according to the Shintoistic teachings and custom, this is not feasible. Yet China remains deeply upset and demands our PM quit his annual visit to the shrine.
Since we have tried to mend the situation yet were notified of the difficulty (impossiblity, rather) due to religious reasons, I deem China's demand to the Japanese PM unreasonable.
Don't get me wrong, though Coconut, because I'm not a big fan of Japanese Politics (although, I am a supporter of Koizumi and his solid intention to keep up his ritual). No pun intended, but Japan seems to be taken advantage of by China at times, but I think for the most part, it is Japan who's been letting that happen repeatedly without changing its wishy-washy, passive attitude towards foreign relations.
Sorry I made an unreasobly long post.
As for "Japanese government deliberately hides the facts," I feel a strong obligation, as a freedom loving individual, to contradict the statement. Japan is a free, democratic nation in which the press, broadcasting stations, news agencies, publishing houses or any form of media are free to voice any opinion, whether it be in an anti-governmental tone or not. Whereas in China, all those institutions are under strict control of CCP, and anyone voicing any hint of unfavorable opinions to CCP is put into jail, I hear.Originally Posted by coconutpalm
Take textbooks, for example. Each school in Japan is free to choose its textbooks. In China, only one version of history book which is imposed by CCP. Is that not right? Tell me if I'm wrong on this.
People in China, as I understand it, are yoked citizens, in terms of freedom of speech. And their opinions are shaped within the design of the government, allowing a fluctuation which won't inhibit China's interests. This is realized through such national media as Xinhua News Agency. And once their opinions are formed, they are maintained--through the constant screening and monitoring by the Google filter. Through this process--narrowing down people's opinions, tailoring them to government's taste, and strengthening them to be taken advantage of in case of diplomatic tensions with other nations.
Don't take my account personally, I only intented as a response to your misguiding message which apparently containd untruth.
I don't see a problem with this.Originally Posted by toscairn
In Ireland the curriculum, and the course material, is set by the state.
Irish History was a fraught subject when I was in school.
We were not long an independent country and had a 'tense' attitude towards England. We had also had a bitter Civil War.
So, without knowing what is in either Japanese or Chinese textbooks I feel confident to speak on the issue.
Nothing which could have been in our schoolbooks could have pleased everyone. There would always be those who would have said that they books were either minimising the events, or were exaggerating them. For this reason the study of Irish History, while I was in school, stopped at the Easter Rising of 1916 — the last great failed rebellion against the British.
This was probably not an ideal answer to the probelm, but it avoided a host of problems. Ireland in the 1950s and '60s had one of the highest per-capita consumption of newspapers in Europe, and it was felt that the lack of study of the recent past was not causing an overwhelming lack of awareness of the period.
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/nanking_massacre.htmhttp://www.answers.com/topic/nanking-massacreIn In both links, our "foreign friends" list the casulalty figure as 300,000.I truly think we are getting far far off-topic and as I am the starter, I am mainly responsible for it. I will consult a Mod, and if we are really getting off-topic, I will send some PMs to several of you.
Here is a complete list of National Death Tolls for the world war if you like.Originally Posted by coconutpalm
If people were meant to pop out of bed in the morning, we'd all sleep in toasters.
Please correct my Eng.
That site makes no mention of the Irish who died in the allied forces!Originally Posted by almostfreebird
I quote from a the first site I found on a search for "Irish dead" +"second word war".
"The Great War has received much of the attention, but the Irish dead of the Second World War were many too. At last year's Remebrance Day service in Dublin we were reminded that 70,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight in the British armed forces and 12,000 were killed. (Additionally, and less often noted, 200,000 migrated to work in Britain's war economy.) None were forced to fight by conscription; each could have chosen to stay put, comparatively safe in neutral Ireland."
That we were a neutral country in the Second World War was because of a certain historical viewpoint adopted by our leaders at the time. This did not stop our citizens becoming involved. They served not only in the British forces, but with American and Canadians too.
The way things are going, I think I should PM "Turk" or any other Turkish member around here, PM some of the Greeks that frequent the site too, and then you'll see what disagreeing about past conflicts means! We've got loads of them you see, and some of the issues are still unresolved! We can flood this thread and any other thread really.
Then I can PM any Bulgarian who hangs around these forums and I can start arguing with him/her too. It will be even better if any Turkish member takes part in the discussion too so that we can start an even bigger brouhaha.
You're right, Ireney. I wrote those last words in a state that I nearly thought I was going to die---I never thought my heart would beat that vehement way!Stop here, foreroes. Please.Although I rarely regret what I choose to do, I am regretting for starting this thread.In my personal life, as I claimed before, I try my best to be neutral and critic when posting on the local forums where most of my fellow citizens are REALLY furious at Japan that they dont' want to analyze the facts. Surely I have no intention to bring up a quarrel here. I was just being curious, and the example of China-Japan relationship was presented becuase I am most familiar with OUR history.
BTW, the mod's reply hasn't yet arrived.
Last edited by coconutpalm; 2nd July 2006 at 3:24 PM.
Writing as a forero, and not as a moderator, I ask that we try to move away from specific personal or national understandings of "the facts of history", and try to focus a little more on the phenomenon of how people respond to their own understanding.
If I were Japanese or Chinese or a Turkish or Greek Cypriot or any of the other hundreds of groups that included both the invaders and the invaded, I imagine I would have some very mixed feelings about the entire topic. I grew up with a very different kind of culture, that lets the past go after a while, other than as a teacher of what to do and not do in the present.
Let me tell a little story to illustrate what I mean. Decades ago, when I was a boy, my family joined a group called--I think this was the name...it was very long ago and I may have it wrong--International Childrens' Summer Village. That organization was dedicated, I suppose, to international understanding through face-to-face contacts among children from different countries.
My family hosted two boys of my age, one from Norway, and one from Japan. The three of us played together, despite language problems, and became friends. This was less than two decades after the end of the Second World War, in which all of our nations had fought. None of the three of us had been told that any child born after that war was a demon, or was to be held accountable for things, including horrors, that took place before the child existed.
When it was my birthday, the Japanese boy had become quite sick with a summer cold, and had a fever. My mother was caring for him as if he were her own child. I told my mother I wanted to cancel my birthday party, as the noise might interrupt his rest. She agreed that it was the right thing to do. There was no geopolitics or national pride in any of this; just ordinary people.
My aunt called, was told the party was cancelled, and got quite enraged at me. She said it was ridiculous to cancel the celebration "because of that Jap!". I was confused, hurt, ashamed, and I cried.
She and I didn't speak for some years after that.
Years later, I reflected back on the events of that day, and tried to understand what had happened and why. I determined that my aunt was still full of grief and anger about the death of her little brother, who served in the war. She was unable to let go of her feelings about the war, and turned them to a little boy from Japan who wasn't on this earth when the war took place. She and I had been very close until that day. Our loving family relationship never fully recovered from her display of anger and hatred, which frightened me, and put me in a position of having to choose between the needs and desires of family and friends. I was unable to do that, and was tormented.
I am grateful to my parents, who accepted that the war was over, had lessons to teach, but should not poison our ability to know and care for other people in the present and future. Had they, like my aunt, continued to hold and nurture bitterness, or to seek vengeance, I would have been denied a friendship with another child, and in all likelihood would have imparted ongoing hatred to my own chidren.
Most of us live in countries that have both suffered and imparted abuse to the peoples of other countries, or have had civil wars in which our own peoples have brutalized one another, taking lives as well as land. Our choice today is what to do with our own knowledge and feelings. We cannot control what past opponents will do--most of them are dead.
We cannot control what the children and grandchildren of those enemies of our parents and grandparents will feel.
We can learn that hatred, carried from one generation to another, will do no good to ourselves or anyone else, and will only beget further hatred. That is our choice to make.
That mod mods best that mods least...with apologies to Th. Jefferson.
Please, Do not read me if you are not willing to have an open mind, OK?!
I am writing this for the sake of free expression.
I am a human and i love every human being.
And this is honouring a Very Brave Girl
And please remember.
"Aquel que no conoce su historia esta condenado a repetirla"
I just want you to know that i think you're a brave girl.
I also live in a country that hides a lot of crap to people.
My country has been invaded several times due to the natural richness.
Due to the human nature of opression.
This same natural instinct made my ancestors a warrior civilization.
But they were not as cruel as the spaniards were with them.
My ancestors did not torture their enemies.
the POWs were tied on one foot and given a club and a shield, then they battle up to 7 warriors (not at the same time).
If they survived, they proved their courage and they were released and when back at home, they were treated as heroes.
My ancestors were scientists like yours (you have a Huuuuuuuuge wall and i have piramids).
After being invaded by (pretty much)everyone, my people has lost the courage and we live now under the shade of the US.
Thanks to our bootlicker politicians.
Thanks to the fear that has been implanted on us.
Our students were killed too and no one said a thing, thanks to foreign interests and investments (the olimpic games were coming a few days after the killing).
That was a very 'intense' thread.
I got angry at the europeans indifference, that's why i didn't participate there.
This part of a e-mail i edited in order to be understood.
Please, uncover your eyes
Are you human or you made it up?
But there is a difference between knowing one's history, and learning from it, understanding it correctly, and not passing on the bitternesses caused by it.Originally Posted by 3.1416
Cuchuflete's post rings many bells with me. My mother was one of a large family from Omagh in Northern Ireland. One of her sisters married a man whose family had to leave Belfast at a time of great unrest between the two main religious factions there.
He passed on a great bitterness to his children regarding his native city and its inhabitants. His wife's very different background did not weigh for much in trying to counter his attitude.
The island of Ireland is cursed by having many people with long hindsight and short foresight!
Please be patient with moderator intervention and keep in mind the different time zones where the mods are located. We are not always able to get to things immediately. If there is an emergency, you are always welcome to use the "Report-A-Post" feature. You are also welcome to contact a Moderator via Private Message with any specific concerns.
Forer@s are welcome to keep to the primary topic of this thread:
Has Your Country Ever Invaded Another, or Has Your Country Ever Been Invaded...and see Coconut Palm's first post for further direction.
While the posts regarding information provided by textbooks and national media were a necessary diversion, they are wholly off-topic, and would make for a nice thread topic on their own.
Last edited by GenJen54; 2nd July 2006 at 5:41 PM.
"Sometimes the worst evil is done by good people who do not know that they are not good." - Reinhold Niebuhr
First of all (keeping in mind cuchuflete's latest post) I am not a Greek-Cypriot. I am a Greek from Greece. I don't know how I would feel if I was from Cyprus. I do know that there are quite a few hotheads down there too and I also know though that quite a few have even created organisations that help Cypriots from both 'sides' to come closer together again.
However Cyprus is quite a different issue from even the China-Japan issue. The BIG -to my mind- difference is that not only it is a much more recent story, it is still unresolved.
I have friends from both Turkey and Bulgaria. With my Turkish friends we tend to stay clear of the Cyprus issue since we had nice, huge disagreements that ended up nowhere.
The same can be said about the rest of our historical conflicts with both Turkey (and its predecessor the Ottoman Empire) and Bulgaria. No conclusion. That does not keep us from enless arguing. (though we tend to draw the line around the Middle-Ages; Apologising to a friend for what a Byzantine Emperor did to the Bulgarian troops got me a very surprising answer.
Now why am I saying all this? Well, I don't think it is wrong to argue about history. I don't think it is wrong being passionate about it either.
What I really think is wrong is the feeling I get from some posts of 'attacking' the other side.
And to keep this post on-topic: Some things hurt even today. Some things make me ashamed even today. They do not generate bitterness though. The past is the past.
very honest emma,you touch the base of truth with your statement in todays world ,and the karma reverse is happening too,that is legal and illigal immigrants sending their salaries to their homelands,england ,spain ,france,europe etc---mostly labour class economic warriors,then thecheap labour costs of production in asia ,like china ,india etc the balance of nature will take its course finallly ,one should not feel approaching embarassment,it is not your fault ,the humans were very raw at that time, (which still the americans follow today with diffrent tools ofcourse)before it were guns against bow and arrow,but countries like yours and mine have learnt and respect the natures ways to equibilirium,america is on adiffrent wave,they make war in iraq vietnaam and many more places,but they let tibet vanish without even holding a breath,as they cant f with china for many reasons,india gave shelter to the population of tibet and had towns allocated for them,when india parted with ,and gave away one huge part of the country to form todays pakistan,on the basis of riligious divide,also announced that all muslims who want to stay back are welcome,today ther are 1000000 bangladeshis living in india,gandhi ji made the british go ,without a fight ,the biggest non violent war in the world,a diffrent dimension alltogether ,and so our ancestors and their bosses did what they did,we didnt do nothing ,we are global today as the world is so small now ,it is a place for all,one day there will be just one language on this planet,a mix of all.Originally Posted by emma42
Last edited by tigretoro; 3rd July 2006 at 4:57 AM.