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Thread: Goal = end ?

  1. #1
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    Goal = end ?

    Is the word 'goal' is the same as the word 'end' ? In English it is not the case, I think, except in the phrase : "The end justifies the means" ?

    In Dutch it is not the case, I think, as we have the word doeleinde (goal-end). Everyone associates goals with destinations, but not really with ends (in the literal sense). The phrase reads: "Het doel heiligt ('sanctions') the means".

    French: but =/= fin, but "La fin justifie les moyens".

    German: Ziel =/= Ende. And: "Das Ziel heiligt die Mittel".

    How about (in) your language?

    P.S. : I found a reference in this section to 'end' (opposite of beginning) and to 'means'.
    Last edited by ThomasK; 24th July 2010 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Added references, changed lay-out a little...

  2. #2
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    In Dutch it is not the case, I think, as we have the word doeleinde (goal-end).
    Doel
    5. -en
    vastgesteld eindpunt
    (Van Dale)
    If you open your mind too much, your brain might fall out.

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Thanks. I realized that there is an implicit semantic link, like in this case the destination of a trip, which is indeed normally the 'ending point' of it. And somehow a goal or objective is always the point where we hope to arrive in a figurative sense: the whole process of efforts is like a trip.
    Yet, we can seldom replace one by the other in a Dutch sentence ('Het doel van mijn leven' is not 'het einde van mijn leven' ), one reason being that the end of our process or trip... is not always the goal we wished to attain. Or so I think.
    Last edited by ThomasK; 24th July 2010 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Hello,

    In Spanish goal: objetivo, meta and end: fin(al(idad)), and you can use end with the meaning of goal. The end justifies the means = El fin justifica los medios (it is a fixed sentence, but you can replace "fin" by "objetivo" and the meaning doesn't change). In a less fixed sentence any of those words would make almost every sentence to sound as natural as the other.

    Regards.

  5. #5
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Great. That reminds me: we can use 'finaliteit' in Dutch in some cases, I guess, for 'goal', and yes, that implies an end indeed. I suddenly remembered a conjunction in Dutch: ten-einde plus subclause (which I'd
    paraphrase as 'towards the end/objective', 'with the goal/end/intention').

    I'd like to ask you for one or two examples, Juan, that show that you can replace one by the other...
    Last edited by ThomasK; 24th July 2010 at 11:48 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Is the word 'goal' is the same as the word 'end' ? In English it is not the case, I think, except in the phrase : "The end justifies the means" ?

    In Dutch it is not the case, I think, as we have the word doeleinde (goal-end). Everyone associates goals with destinations, but not really with ends (in the literal sense). The phrase reads: "Het doel heiligt ('sanctions') the means".

    French: but =/= fin, but "La fin justifie les moyens".

    German: Ziel =/= Ende. And: "Das Ziel heiligt die Mittel".

    How about (in) your language?

    P.S. : I found a reference in this section to 'end' (opposite of beginning) and to 'means'.
    In Greek we translate "goal" as:
    1/ «Tέρμα» ('terma, neuter noun) deriving from the same classical noun «τέρμα» ('tĕrmă, neuter noun). It lit. means end, in point of time or distance, boundary. PIE base *ter-, to cross over. Cognate with Sanskrit तरति (tárati), German tor. In football, the goal is «τέρμα» and the goalkeeper/goalie is «τερματοφύλακας» (termato'filakas, masculine noun), lit. the guardian of boundary.
    2/ «Σκοπός» (sko'pos, masculine noun) deriving from the same classical noun «σκοπός» (skŏ'pŏs, masculine noun), lit. one that watches, one that looks about or after things, metaph. end, intent, objective.
    "End" is «τέλος» ('telos, neuter noun), from the ancient «τέλος» ('tĕlŏs, neuter noun), lit. fulfilment, conclusion. PIE base *telā-, to weigh, lift, probably due to the weighing of the correct amount of gold/goods one had to pay as a financial charge or other levy in order to meet the requirements or expectations of the State (from «τέλος», the ancient Greek unit of value and mass «τάλαντον», talent derives). This amphibology of «τέλος» has survived in Modern Greek: «Τέλος» describes both the fulfilment, conclusion and the rate, tax (e.g. stamp duty is τέλος χαρτοσήμου-telos xarto'simu in Greek).
    PS1: "The end justifies the means" is an idiomatic set expression in Greek-->«ο σκοπός αγιάζει τα μέσα» (o sko'pos aʝi'azi ta 'mesa), lit. the end hallows/sanctifies the means)
    PS2: In movies, the phrase by which the film ends is «Τέλος» (without the definite article)

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Ah, great contribution again (from the bedrock of European civilisation ;-) )!

    The link with 'term' opens perspectives - and from now on I'll only talk about referees and termofilakai (I felt like writing thermofilakai, but those are different kinds of people, I suppose).
    A skopos then is some kind of guard, I imagine, whereas for a second I thought of a link with a perspective (-spicere, looking/ watching).

    I had in fact thought that 'telos' was ambiguous, meaning end and goal, but it is not in that way, I now read. Very interesting, thanks !

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    In Portuguese the words are like in Spanish, but I would say that a goal can mean many things:

    baliza: a goal in the game of football
    obje(c)tivo: an objective, an aim
    fim, finalidade: end, aim
    propósito, intenção: intention, aim
    meta: aim, target; also the finish line in a race
    alvo: target
    fim: 'the end' in a story
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  9. #9
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    I'd like to ask you for one or two examples, Juan, that show that you can replace one by the other...
    Keep in mind that there may be more common ways to say it, but just as example...
    He reached the goal (running, literary) - Llegó a la meta//Llegó al final (he arrived to the end)
    He reached his goals - Logró sus objetivos (metas)//Logró su fin (it would go to "Logró los fines que perseguía" - He reached the goals he was aiming for).
    What is the goal of this strike? - ¿Cuál es el objetivo de esta huelga?//¿Cuál es la finalidad de esta huelga?

    The Spanish sentences translates almost word by word into English.
    I tried to use them all, but if there is a sentence in mind, just say it!

  10. #10
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    @ Outsider: can you substitue fim for any of the other words then? I guess not, just asking...

    @Juan: no, no, this is fine. I notice that you can really 'switch' them quite often...

  11. #11
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    @ Outsider: can you substitue fim for any of the other words then? I guess not, just asking...
    You cannot replace fim for baliza (football goal) or alvo (target). You can replace it for the other words in many cases, but it depends on the context. For example, fim cannot replace meta when it means 'finish line'. Even when meta just means 'aim' or 'goal' in general, there are expressions where you can replace it by fim but there are others where you can't.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  12. #12
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Interesting. That is quite different from Dutch.

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    (I felt like writing thermofilakai, but those are different kinds of people, I suppose)
    haha, yes they sound similar but they are not (interesting neologism this thermofilakas, the guardian of heat )
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    A skopos then is some kind of guard, I imagine, whereas for a second I thought of a link with a perspective (-spicere, looking/ watching)
    Σκοπός-Sko'pos is indeed the guard/sentry in military language. The noun derives from the verb «σκοπεύω» (sko'pevo), a classical one: «Σκοπέω» (skŏ'pĕō)-->to look at or after a thing. From PIE base *spek-, to observe (cognate with Eng. scope, Lat. specere (to look at). In Modern Greek with «σκοπεύω» (sko'pevo) we also describe the aiming with a gun.

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Finnish.
    Football goal is "maali", but this is rarely used metaphorically to signify "a goal of sth". We usually use the word päämäärä (end limit?*) or tavoite (< "tavoittaa" 'reach') .

    End is either loppu or pää (~ of a rope, for example).

    However, the saying is translated differently. In Finnish, tarkoitus pyhittää keinot. The purpose sanctifies the means.

    * In modern Finnish, pää = head and määrä = amount. Head amount? The etymological source is Russian мера, "measure; degree, extent, limit". "End limit" makes sense, but I may be wrong...
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    I suppose end and head are related, as two parts of a rope. It makes sense indeed, I think ! Thanks !

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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Tagalog: 1.)Goal=Layunin 2.)Mission=Adhikain i cannot see in these two words if there is link between goal and end but we have this phrase (gawaing dapat tapusin) "things needed to complete" Tapusin " here is also synonymous to "bring to an end" but with the meaning "to accomplish"/to complete.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  17. #17
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    You seem to be suggesting that there is a link with end, somehow: completing. But can you analyse those words? Is the word for 'end' in 'to complete' ?

  18. #18
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sakvaka View Post
    Finnish.
    Football goal is "maali", but this is rarely used metaphorically to signify "a goal of sth". We usually use the word päämäärä (end limit?*) or tavoite (< "tavoittaa" 'reach') .
    Oh, and in Swedish tavoite and maali are both "mål", so there seems to be one language without the distinction.

    uppfylla målet ("fill up the goal/objective")
    = saavuttaa tavoite ("reach what you have been trying to reach") or päästä maaliin ("get [in]to the goal/cross the finish line")
    = meet targets

    skjuta över målet ("shoot over the goal")
    = ylittää tavoitteet ("surpass the thing you've been trying to reach")
    = exceed targets
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

  19. #19
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Thanks for the information. But are we not referring to one meaning here? I know: not quite, but I mean... The soccer goal is some kind of target (one is playing towards), I think. It would still be stronger if we had the same root for both 'end' and 'goal'. or am I somehow mistaken?

  20. #20
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    Re: Goal = end ?

    Oops, sorry! That was indeed one meaning and not two!

    Ända
    (end) doesn't appear to be related to mål, so I think Swedish speaking people are better at looking for possible connections.
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

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