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Thread: Greek loanwords in Arabic

  1. #21
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Are you 100% sure?

  2. #22
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by er targyn View Post
    Are you 100% sure?
    If there is a 3-letter root, which there is, then it's definitely not a loanword.
    اذكر الله

  3. #23
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    What do you mean?

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by إسكندراني View Post
    If there is a 3-letter root, which there is, then it's definitely not a loanword.
    Does Arabic integrate some borrowings into its 3-letter root system?

    Something along these lines:

    All Arabic word formation is based on an abstraction, namely, the root, usually consisting of three consonants. These root sounds join with various vowel patterns to form simple nouns and verbs to which affixes can be attached for more complicated derivations. For example, the borrowed term bank is considered to have the consonantal root b-n-k; film is formed from f-l-m
    ...
    For example, for the borrowed words bank and film, the plurals are, respectively, bunuk for banks and aflam for films.

  5. #25
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew all have foreign words that turned into roots. The Greek word Taxis has been made into the root TKS in all three of them.

  6. #26
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by DenisBiH View Post
    Does Arabic integrate some borrowings into its 3-letter root system?
    Quote Originally Posted by tFighterPilot View Post
    Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew all have foreign words that turned into roots. The Greek word Taxis has been made into the root TKS in all three of them.
    Or sometimes 4-letter roots. E.g. in Hebrew the word the verb to telephone is tilpen (infinitive letalpen).

  7. #27
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by tFighterPilot View Post
    The Greek word Taxis has been made into the root TKS in all three of them.
    Even more than one Hebrew root: תכסיס (trick), טקס (ceremony), לטכס עצה (to consult), each forms a different 3 letter root based on the same Greek word, and in addition the modern טקטיקה (tactics).

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Or sometimes 4-letter roots. E.g. in Hebrew the word the verb to telephone is tilpen (infinitive letalpen).
    Most speakers say tilfen, letalfen which follows the international (and Greek) pronounciation but not the clssic Hebrew rules, so this root is not fully absorbed into Hebrew.

  8. #28
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by er targyn View Post
    Are you 100% sure?
    About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (such as the meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.)

  9. #29
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahaodeh View Post
    About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (such as the meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.)
    Etymolnline agrees with you. They have the following to say about genie:
    1650s, "tutelary spirit," from Fr. génie, from L. genius (see genius); used in French translation of "Arabian Nights" to render Arabic jinni, singular of jinn, which it accidentally resembled, and attested in English with this sense from 1748.
    The important word is accidentally.

  10. #30
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    What if not accidentally? Any deviation must be explained.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by er targyn View Post
    What if not accidentally? Any deviation must be explained.
    The onus of proof rests with those who claim a connection exists. For both L. genius and A. jinn there are plausible etymologies within the respective language groups. Vague phonetic similarities between words from language groups without demonstrable genetic relationship does not in itself constitute a valid argument for a relationship, be it cognate or loan.

  12. #32
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahaodeh View Post
    janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it)
    Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means garden but nothing related to hidden. The same root also means protect, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means garden but nothing related to hidden. The same root also means protect, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.
    Here I found to grow in abundance as the PS root meaning of G-N-N.

  14. #34
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    Can't it be a totally different root that happens to have the same 3 letters? In Hebrew root gnn means garden but nothing related to hidden. The same root also means protect, which sounds (in Hebrew at least) as an irrelated employment of the same 3 letters.
    Going through the root meanings in Arabic, it certainly seems that it carries more than 1 meaning.
    Compare for example:
    junna جنة meaning: protection, armour.
    Also mijann مجنّ meaning "shield".
    Maybe one could argue that one hides, gets covered by a shield or something of the sort.

    As for the meaning related to "grow in abundance", this is an entry in Lisan Al-Arab:
    وجُنَّ النبتُ جُنوناً أَي طالَ والْتَفَّ وخرج زهره
    basically meaning that if one says "junna" (verb) referring to plants, then it means it has grown and flowered.
    But then the author of the Lisan attempts in the entry to ultimately connect these meanings to the meaning "to hide/cover", but it's a retrospective analysis, as with mijann & junnah mentioned earlier.
    The connection mentioned by the author of the Lisan does make sense to me in Arabic, but I think a more comparative approach is needed within the Semitic languages to see whether this connection holds.

    But I guess thats deserves a new thread.


  15. #35
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Here I found to grow in abundance as the PS root meaning of G-N-N.
    It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. Garden may be derived from this G-N-N but what about hidden? protect? mad? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to grow in abundance.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. Garden may be derived from this G-N-N but what about hidden? protect? mad? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to grow in abundance.
    I agree. I can see how to protect and to hide can form a single semantic unit and meanings like to flourish or garden can be derived from that. But not really the other way round.

  17. #37
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    The name for the Greek currency «δραχμὴ» (drāx'mē, f.), gave dirham درهم
    Others claim that dirham derives from «δίδραχμον» ('dĭdrāxmŏn, n.)--> two-drachma (coin of 2 drachmas)
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  18. #38
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    It ignores several meanings of the root, some of them common to several Semitic languages. Therefore seems to me questionable. Garden may be derived from this G-N-N but what about hidden? protect? mad? other meanings mentioned above? They do not seem related to grow in abundance.

    Objection! Protect? Thats obvious! Legonen means to protect.
    Mignana is defensive actions, joining to what rayloom said.
    Mad may be close to the root H-T-M which perfectly gives variations of to hide, to make something hidden


    Plus in hebrew you can find 2,3,4,rarely 5 and 6 roots.
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

  19. #39
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    Objection! Protect? Thats obvious! Legonen means to protect.
    Mignana is defensive actions, joining to what rayloom said.
    To what precisely do you object? Origumi explicitly said that G-N-N also means to protect.

  20. #40
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    To the mad word. and about protect didnt notice. Which are the other words 'mentioned before'? I cant track them...
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

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