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Thread: Greek loanwords in Arabic

  1. #41
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    To the mad word. and about protect didnt notice. Which are the other words 'mentioned before'? I cant track them...
    Here you go:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahaodeh View Post
    About jinn? Yes I am. The root also has other words that have nothing to do with "the guardian spirit" or whatever the Greeks believed in. Example: janna al-layl = means the night has hidden [everything]; janna(t) means a garden with high trees (that hide whatever is behind it) - it also means heaven as we can't see it. janiin is a fetus or embryo (hidden inside his mother). I can go on but it's a very long root and some words in it have deviated a little (such as the meanings of jinn, madness, veils, shields, graveyards ...etc.)
    I still don't understand to what you object concerning G-N-N = mad.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Ok, perhaps I misunderstood what origumi said.
    Ill look at it tomrrow,have a test early morning. Later
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  3. #43
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    The jinn were a creature of Arabian desert mythology long predating Islam. They are associated with desolate and remote parts of the desert. Experiencing the darkness of an Arabian desert wadi at night, one can easily understand how such creatures arose in the imagination of the ancient peoples here. The explanation through the root j-n-n ("to be hidden") is very plausible and makes a lot of sense. I haven't seen anything in this thread to persuade me that it came all the way from Greece, though I am of course open to any additional evidence. I would note that the fact that the root j-n-n can also have the meaning of growth (hence jannah for garden) does not necessarily detract from the Arabic etymology. It is common for a root to be used for two unrelated meanings, as a cursory look at any Arabic dictionary will give you. Even today in Saudi Arabia, one often hears a root that means one thing in the east and something completely different in the west.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Supporting Wadi, semitic languages are known to have various, sometimes vast unrelated usages and meanings to the same root.
    My theory is that due to the strict grammatical structure and rules, (we have a limited number of roots) it is a key piece to have multiple useage to the same root.
    Perhaps all is needed is to have more binyanim, but thats OT for here,though interesting to hear arabic natives as arabic was spoken continuously and must have more roots than in hebrew, though they do have 10 binyanim while hebrew has 7. Did arabic add over time binyanim?
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  5. #45
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Here you go:

    I still don't understand to what you object concerning G-N-N = mad.
    The reason a mad person is known in Arabic as majnuun is because the Arabs believed such a person to have been possessed by jinn. In the Quran, Muhammad is often accused by the pagans of Mecca of being saaHir (a sorceror), shaa'ir (a poet), kaahin (a soothsayer who speaks to the jinn) or majnuun (passive participle from j-n-n). He is also accused as bihi massun min al-jinn ("touched by a jinni"), a variation of majnuun​.

  6. #46
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wadi Hanifa View Post
    The jinn were a creature of Arabian desert mythology long predating Islam. They are associated with desolate and remote parts of the desert. Experiencing the darkness of an Arabian desert wadi at night, one can easily understand how such creatures arose in the imagination of the ancient peoples here. The explanation through the root j-n-n ("to be hidden") is very plausible and makes a lot of sense. I haven't seen anything in this thread to persuade me that it came all the way from Greece, though I am of course open to any additional evidence. I would note that the fact that the root j-n-n can also have the meaning of growth (hence jannah for garden) does not necessarily detract from the Arabic etymology. It is common for a root to be used for two unrelated meanings, as a cursory look at any Arabic dictionary will give you. Even today in Saudi Arabia, one often hears a root that means one thing in the east and something completely different in the west.
    +1
    Haven't encountered any Homeric/Classical/Koine/Byzantine Greek word so far, which suggests that jinn is a Greek loanword in Arabic language; on the contrary, Modern Greek has the neuter noun «τζίνι» /'dzini/ which according to prof. Babiniotis is an Arabic loanword via Ottoman Turkish. It's a colloquialism for the very bright person (probably after Latin influence and folk etymology). The equivalent Greek word is the neuter noun «δαιμόνιον» (Classical Greek, dæ'mŏnīŏn, Modern Greek /ðe'monio/) which described an inferior devine being in ancient Greek mythology, often a naughty teaser. In Modern Greek, the very capable, intentive (and shrewd) person is described by the adj. «δαιμόνιος» /ðe'monios/
    Last edited by apmoy70; 24th February 2012 at 12:48 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    Perhaps all is needed is to have more binyanim, but thats OT for here,though interesting to hear arabic natives as arabic was spoken continuously and must have more roots than in hebrew, though they do have 10 binyanim while hebrew has 7. Did arabic add over time binyanim?
    This probably deserves its own thread.

    Concerning triliteral root verbs, you have the common Semitic stems being (most likely descended from Proto-Semitic):
    1- G-stem
    2- D-stem
    3- Š-stem
    4- Gt-stem (or tG-stem, a variation occuring in colloquial Arabic and Aramaic)
    5- tD-stem (or Dt-stem, a variation occuring in Akkadian and Aramaic)
    6- N-stem
    7- Št-stem
    (the L-stem and tL-stem are debatable apparently, however, they do occur in Arabic, Biblical Hebrew (p. 108), Ethiosemitic and Ugaritic, Ugaritic apparently having only the L-stem).

    Hebrew has 7 binyanim, from 5 stems:
    1- paʕal, which meets Arabic form I faʕala: G-stem
    2- piʕel, which meets Arabic form II faʕʕala: D-stem
    3- hifʕil, which meets Arabic form IV ʔafʕala: Š-stem (or C-stem)
    4- hitpaʕel, which meets Arabic form V tafaʕʕala (Colloquial Arabic 'itfaʕʕal): tD-stem (which apparently merged with the Gt-stem in Hebrew)
    5- nifʕal, which meets Arabic form VII infaʕala: N-stem
    6- puʕal, which meets the passive voice of Arabic form II fuʕʕila: passive of D-stem
    7- hufʕal, which meets the passive voice of Arabic form IV ʔufʕila: passive of Š-stem (or C-stem)

    (And if we include Biblical Hebrew):
    - hištafʕal (attested in Hebrew hištaḥwā), which meets Arabic form X 'istafʕala: Št-stem
    - L-stem and its passive. And its reflexive tL-stem. (see p. 108 of "Handbook of Biblical Hebrew").

    So, the 5 stems in Hebrew being: G-stem, D-stem, Š-stem, tD-stem (or Gt-stem), N-stem. Biblical Hebrew having 3 extra stems: Št-stem, L-stem, tL-stem.

    Akkadian has all the aforementioned 7 stems, and in addition to that 5 extra stems (total 12).
    Arabic has all those 7 stems, and in addition to that the L-stem & tL-stem, and 6 extra stems (total 15)
    Aramaic has 6 stems, (lost the N-stem)
    Ugaritic has all those 7 stems + L-stem. (total 8).

    Regarding those extra stems in Akkadian and Arabic, they might be innovative in the end, they do exhibit however a feature which suggests derivations from other stems. Which in Akkadian, it's the -tan- infix into different stems. And in Arabic, it can be variations of the D-stem, sometimes with elongation of the vowel before, or an infixation of -n- or -w-, which also has gives a reflexive/mediopassive meaning, usually used to form stative verbs.
    Last edited by rayloom; 24th February 2012 at 7:33 PM.


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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    I feel I interrupt the nice discussion about genius ~ jinn but I want to share a loanword I have recently discovered it:

    Arabic ﻣﺼﻄﻜﻰ 'resin of mastic tree' < Old Greek μαστιχη 'mastic, mastiche'.

  9. #49
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    barqouq برقوق = "prune" or, in certain areas "apricot". The Arabic word was most probably borrowed from Greek praikokion itself borrowed from Latin praecoquum which means precocious/early. The Arabic word was then borrowed by most European languages; Eng. Apricot, Fr. Abricot, etc. See Amine Maalouf's excellent "My Web Words".

  10. #50
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by djara View Post
    barqouq برقوق = "prune" or, in certain areas "apricot". The Arabic word was most probably borrowed from Greek praikokion itself borrowed from Latin praecoquum which means precocious/early. The Arabic word was then borrowed by most European languages; Eng. Apricot, Fr. Abricot, etc. See Amine Maalouf's excellent "My Web Words".
    The Byzantine Greek word is «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» (ve'rykokon or ve'rikokkon, both spellings are common) which is a Latin loanword--> praecox (alt. praecoquum) persicum. lit. premature peach.
    «Πραικόκιον» (prae'kokion) is definitely not a Greek word (in fact I've never heard it).
    praecox (praecoquum) > «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» > barqouq برقوق
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  11. #51
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Turkish Etymology dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy says that the Turkish "cin gibi" (like a cin) did not enter Turkish from Arabic and that it's not related to a creature that can not be seen.

    It says it is related to "cin" meaning "true, real". Someone who speaks the truth.

    There's also Turuz dictionary that talks about the same word meaning similar things.

    http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=cin
    Last edited by ancalimon; 25th February 2012 at 5:15 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by apmoy70 View Post
    The Byzantine Greek word is «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» (ve'rykokon or ve'rikokkon, both spellings are common) which is a Latin loanword--> praecox (alt. praecoquum) persicum. lit. premature peach.
    «Πραικόκιον» (prae'kokion) is definitely not a Greek word (in fact I've never heard it).
    praecox (praecoquum) > «βερύκοκον/βερίκοκκον» > barqouq برقوق
    Thanks Apmoy for this more accurate information.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    What are stems rayloom? And where did you get that great knowledge? Thanks for the info btw!
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  14. #54
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    What are stems rayloom?
    In Hebrew they are called binyanim.
    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    And where did you get that great knowledge?
    His post contains the relevant links. Just click on them.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    I have serious doubt about "souf" being of Greek origin. Here is short list of well known Greek loanwords in Arabic:
    falsafa; safsaTa; almâs; joghrâfiyâ; qânûn; bayTâr; yâqût; iksîr;

  16. #56
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by rayloom View Post
    (And if we include Biblical Hebrew):
    - hištafʕal (attested in Hebrew hištaḥwā), which meets Arabic form X 'istafʕala: Št-stem
    - L-stem and its passive. And its reflexive tL-stem. (see p. 108 of "Handbook of Biblical Hebrew").

    So, the 5 stems in Hebrew being: G-stem, D-stem, Š-stem, tD-stem (or Gt-stem), N-stem. Biblical Hebrew having 3 extra stems: Št-stem, L-stem, tL-stem.
    Two quick comments:

    1. If we add hishtaf`el (the hištaḥwā pattern) to the 7 Hebrew "stems", then we need to add also shif`el and shuf`al (` stands for ayin), thus have 10 stems (7 + 3). These three "heavy" binyanim go together. (or is it exactly what you said?)

    2. These sh-f-`-l binyanim are not necessarly a Hebrew invention - they exist also in Aramaic, e.g. אִשְׁתַּכְלַלוּ hishtaklalu (= finished, completed) of root k-l-l, therefore may be a Proto Aramaic-Canaanite feature, or maybe an Aramaic influence on Hebrew (or vice versa, so some other kind of borrowing between the languages).

    But as you said - this is rather off topic and deserves a separate thread.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Turkish Etymology dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy says that the Turkish "cin gibi" (like a cin) did not enter Turkish from Arabic and that it's not related to a creature that can not be seen.

    It says it is related to "cin" meaning "true, real". Someone who speaks the truth.

    There's also Turuz dictionary that talks about the same word meaning similar things.

    http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=cin

    Turkish cin gibi (dzhin ...) phrase is used for those who are so smart. Therefore it can not be related to Old Turkich çın (chyn) 'true, genuine; truth' word (besides, according to Clauson, that's a Chinesse loanword. It was originally chén.). Attribution to intelligence by the name of creature jinn must be pertinent to semantically contamination Arabic jinn with Latin/Greek genius, I think.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by Edguoglitigin View Post
    Turkish cin gibi (dzhin ...) phrase is used for those who are so smart. Therefore it can not be related to Old Turkich çın (chyn) 'true, genuine; truth' word (besides, according to Clauson, that's a Chinesse loanword. It was originally chén.). Attribution to intelligence by the name of creature jinn must be pertinent to semantically contamination Arabic jinn with Latin/Greek genius, I think.
    Actually, it's not specifically used for people that are smart. It is also used for people "that see the truth" , "that understand whether someone is lying or not", "whether the gold he is holding in his hands is fake or not".

    So a person can be fool, unwise... But he can be "cin gibi" at the same time.

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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by arsham View Post
    I have serious doubt about "souf" being of Greek origin. Here is short list of well known Greek loanwords in Arabic:
    falsafa; safsaTa; almâs; joghrâfiyâ; qânûn; bayTâr; yâqût; iksîr;
    Could you please give the possible Greek origins of these words? (besides of course falsafa, joghrâfiyâ and qânûn which are obvious)
    Thanks
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    Re: Greek loanwords in Arabic

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    Actually, it's not specifically used for people that are smart. It is also used for people "that see the truth" , "that understand whether someone is lying or not", "whether the gold he is holding in his hands is fake or not".

    So a person can be fool, unwise... But he can be "cin gibi" at the same time.
    A person who is fool but capable of seeing the truth does not sound reasonable. A person who sees the truth must be good at thinking that it is the same with what I mentioned above.

    On the other hand, cin gibi phrase has not been attested in Old Turkic nor in Old Anatolian (Old Ottoman). So it must be a newer form.

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