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Thread: What is racism?

  1. #41
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by bernik View Post
    french4beth: "I think that it is racist to automatically assume that any black person that lives in America is from Africa."

    It is a fact that the whites come from Europe, and the blacks come from Africa.
    You should know that.
    bernik,
    You might want to take a colour chart with you the next time you go to Australia, New Zealand, Polynesia, Micronesia and several other places besides.
    You might like to compare the whiteness of say the Greeks or Italians with Boers in South Africa, or people in the Levant (wonderful French word!).
    (we won't go into Michael Jackson's case just yet.)

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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness View Post
    I'm trying to put together a survey/test to help people reflect on their racism or lack of racism. There will be 10 questions. I'd appreciate your feedback. I'm planning to apply it to different races (not ethnicities) and to keep it simple I'll use the categories: white, black, yellow, brown, and red. I'll use white as default just to pilot the questions but the racial categories can be changed accordingly.

    Question #1. If your 17-year-old daughter shows up at your home with her new black boyfriend and states that she wants to marry him, how would you react? Pick only one response.

    a) You'll blurt something that will contain the expression "over my dead body."

    b) You'll embrace your daughter and tell her that you are proud of her for being an inclusive and non-racist individual.

    c) You'll have a drink after 15 years of sobriety.

    d) You'll pass out.

    e) There will no response (fatal heart attack).

    d) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of joy.

    e) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of desperation.

    f) After doing a), c), d) and/or e), you'll go to the bathroom look at yourself in the mirror and say, "You are a f*cking racist (your name here). Get your act together right now and let your daughter live her life."

    f) You'll give your daughter and her black boyfriend a short unbiased lecture on the pros and cons of mixed marriages.

    g) You'll wait until your daughter falls asleep, drug her up, and move to Costa Rica the next day.

    h) Other (please specify)


    So people, what do you think? Is it user-friendly? Any changes before I move to question #2? Items that I left out or should leave out?
    In response to the nature of the responses:
    You need to change your options if you wish to receive objective responses.
    It would be obvious to any person participating in such a survey that the responses are incredibly biased towards negativity and bigotry and judgemental behaviour.
    The closest to a positive response is e) but this indicates when taken into consideration with other choices that you have not responded to your daughter.
    The next one down the scale of negativity is f) but this answer infers that there is a problem where no such problem exists except in the mind of a bigot.
    In response to the question:
    h) "Congratulations georgeous. We are so happy for you both. Welcome to the family mate."

    .,,

  3. #43
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness View Post
    Are you ready to take a five-minute online test help tell whether you are racist or not? Good luck and don't lie, ok?

    https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
    "Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between Black People and White People."

    So, what does that tell anyone - about me, about you, or about Harvard and its test?

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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxiogee View Post
    "Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between Black People and White People."

    So, what does that tell anyone - about me, about you, or about Harvard and its test?
    "Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between Black People and White People."
    'twould seem that maxiogee is the same as me

    .,,

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    Re: What is racism?

    I think this is where we've arrived from the posts so far:

    Racism: the assumption of an inherent link between certain traits or characteristics and race.

    I like this definition, because it covers both positive and negative perceptions of that link, and both positive and negative perceptions about one's own race.


    The poll reminds me of a wedding in Toronto in the nineties. The groom's black relatives felt that he was letting down the side and refused to attend, as did the bride's white relatives. Their wedding was celebrated and supported by friends and colleagues, not by family members.
    "The trouble with normal is it always gets worse." Bruce Cockburn

  6. #46
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxiogee View Post
    bernik,

    You might like to compare the whiteness of say most Greeks or Italians with most Boers in South Africa, or people in the Levant (wonderful French word!).
    What? Am I not Greek just because I am of extra light skin?
    “I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.” ~ Jerome K. Jerome

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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kräuter_Fee View Post
    That's a good question. I think everyone is a little bit racist, everyone makes comments about other races. But there are many types of racism...

    By the way:

    Is this racism? Or is it a fact? It's proven that black men have much more testosterone than Asian men, which makes them more aggressive.

    I don't know if it's a cultural thing, or if it depends on the race, but you can see differences among the races.

    How about gypsies? They are kind of different, is it because of their culture? Or does it have something to do with genetics?
    actually people make negative comments about "the other" ie different race, ethnic group ,religion, class , part of a country, nationality.In fact any group of people who are percieved to be different are generally scapegoated for something or other. Man would appear to be tribal by nature.Overhere we dislike Chavs. Not a race or ethnic group or religious sect but people from a particular social class who behave, have a lifestyle and dress in a manner which is considered inferior and sometimes threatening:
    http://www.chavscum.co.uk/
    if you see one run a mile fast!
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  8. #48
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaska Ñawi View Post
    I think this is where we've arrived from the posts so far:

    Racism: the assumption of an inherent link between certain traits or characteristics and race.

    I like this definition, because it covers both positive and negative perceptions of that link, and both positive and negative perceptions about one's own race.
    There's nothing redeemable in racism, maybe in race. But we shouldn't confuse those terms. I subscribe to the idea that race is a social construct that was originally devised and thereafter used with great success for almost exclusively oppressive purposes. Slavery of black folks, for instance, was based on race, a classification of human beings based on skin color, hair texture, and facial structure. Whites amassed wealth based on the exploitation of fellow human beings that were viewed as sub-human.

    But race is hard to die despite the fact that the rejection of race in science is now almost complete. Here's a great summary of the current status of this debate. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/race.htm

    I like the definition of racism that otherwise unreliable Wikipedia offers:

    Racism refers to various belief systems maintaining that the essential value of an individual person can be determined according to a perceived or ascribed racial category and that social discrimination by race is therefore justifiable.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

  9. #49
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness View Post
    I'm trying to put together a survey/test to help people reflect on their racism or lack of racism. There will be 10 questions. I'd appreciate your feedback. I'm planning to apply it to different races (not ethnicities) and to keep it simple I'll use the categories: white, black, yellow, brown, and red. I'll use white as default just to pilot the questions but the racial categories can be changed accordingly.

    Question #1. If your 17-year-old daughter shows up at your home with her new black boyfriend and states that she wants to marry him, how would you react? Pick only one response.

    a) You'll blurt something that will contain the expression "over my dead body."

    b) You'll embrace your daughter and tell her that you are proud of her for being an inclusive and non-racist individual.

    c) You'll have a drink after 15 years of sobriety.

    d) You'll pass out.

    e) There will no response (fatal heart attack).

    d) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of joy.

    e) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of desperation.

    f) After doing a), c), d) and/or e), you'll go to the bathroom look at yourself in the mirror and say, "You are a f*cking racist (your name here). Get your act together right now and let your daughter live her life."

    f) You'll give your daughter and her black boyfriend a short unbiased lecture on the pros and cons of mixed marriages.

    g) You'll wait until your daughter falls asleep, drug her up, and move to Costa Rica the next day.

    h) Other (please specify)


    So people, what do you think? Is it user-friendly? Any changes before I move to question #2? Items that I left out or should leave out?
    h) "Congratulations, happy for you, etc, but I hope you're going to get a degree before you get married." But then, in my family, all 5 of your "color" groupings are represented, so it's no big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness
    Slavery of black folks, for instance, was based on race, a classification of human beings based on skin color, hair texture, and facial structure. Whites amassed wealth based on the exploitation of fellow human beings that were viewed as sub-human.
    Actually, in the US there were also black slave owners. Admittedly they were a small percentage, but when you consider how few actual slaveholders in the antebellum South *were* amassing a significant amount of wealth based on slave labor, rather than having one or two slaves to help bring in enough of a crop to help the family survive (the major plantation owners were fewer and farther between than most people realize), it's something to consider.
    Last edited by stephyjh; 25th August 2006 at 8:40 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaska Ñawi View Post
    Racism: the assumption of an inherent link between certain traits or characteristics and race.

    I like this definition, because it covers both positive and negative perceptions of that link, and both positive and negative perceptions about one's own race.
    So is racism OK as long as you only hold positive perceptions?

    How is is possible to hold positive perceptions of one race without inferring negative perceptions of another race?

    .,,

  11. #51
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    Re: What is racism?

    While reading many of the posts in this thread, and appreciating the fact that people seem to be sharing opinions without trying to challenge each other to a duel (well, mostly...), while discussing a notoriously fractious issue, I've had a revelation:
    I often wondered how it was possible that the some of the most celebrated and capable minds of the first half of the Twentieth Century would embrace and promote the concept of "Eugenics"...
    I suppose the problem wasn't the concept per se, but the easy and comfortable slippery slide down the tubes into racism that followed... I mean, although mostly now a used as a watchword and approached with trembling fingers, Eugenics' premise of the betterment of humanity by selective breeding finds a compassionate application in the discovery of hereditary illnesses, and the ongoing research to isolate, and ultimately discover a way to nullify, the genes that cause such diseases.
    Maybe science would have be a lot more advanced in that respect if not for the complete f*uck-all situation of the application of the Eugenics' concept by the Nazis in the 1930's.

    And now, back to our regular programme...
    ¿88 relatos descarriados? Un leve desliz…

  12. #52
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness View Post
    a) You'll…
    b) You'll…
    c) You'll…
    d) You'll…
    e) There…
    d) You'll…
    e) You'll…
    f) After…
    f) You'll…
    g) You'll…
    h) Other…
    If (and that's a big 'if") I answer d e or f — how will you know which one I mean?
    Can't you do simple alphabetics?

  13. #53
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielfranco View Post
    While reading many of the posts in this thread, and appreciating the fact that people seem to be sharing opinions without trying to challenge each other to a duel (well, mostly...), while discussing a notoriously fractious issue, I've had a revelation:
    I often wondered how it was possible that the some of the most celebrated and capable minds of the first half of the Twentieth Century would embrace and promote the concept of "Eugenics"...
    I suppose the problem wasn't the concept per se, but the easy and comfortable slippery slide down the tubes into racism that followed... I mean, although mostly now a used as a watchword and approached with trembling fingers, Eugenics' premise of the betterment of humanity by selective breeding finds a compassionate application in the discovery of hereditary illnesses, and the ongoing research to isolate, and ultimately discover a way to nullify, the genes that cause such diseases.
    Maybe science would have be a lot more advanced in that respect if not for the complete f*uck-all situation of the application of the Eugenics' concept by the Nazis in the 1930's.

    And now, back to our regular programme...

    DanielFranco, I understand that "Nazi" has become the scarecrow word but you try to understand as well: the science does not become a bad thing in itself only because a bunch of bastards chooses to use it in the most deformed form for their own purposes!!! In that way you should probably banish all other sciences as well because bad guys at different times in the history of the human kind have made use of almost every branch of it. And we have to start with banishing the Catholic Church ( as it used to be awfully cruel and full of absurdity in the Middle ages) and the music of Wagner (because it gave a lot of inspiration to Hitler). "the betterment of humanity by nullifying the defective genes and attempting to eliminate hereditary illnesses" is what all biology, genetics, a lot of medicine and the whole concept of evolution is about! Please refer your complaints to the Lord God who has invented that, but the extinction of the weak and the incapable was at all times the natural and essential condition for the surviving not only of humans but of all living beings. If this had not been so, you wouldn`t be around by now, none of us would. With time and thanks to the fact that we are approaching a more humanistic and humane era, we have learnt not to kill the weak but to try and prevent illnesses, pathologies, defects, to work on teaching people how to prevent the development of those. If we are not going to do it, we shall either die out in a very short while and in a very violent painful way (which, I guess, is not what you would wish for your children) or some groups will be forced to exterminate others - back to the "good" old times. This is what is happening to quite a number of nations today which are "doomed" due to their genetical and reproductive health and perception of it not needing any modification or care. Sorry, I do not enjoy seeing it.

    So you shall have to consider me Nazi as well from now on as long as I have chosen to pursue the career in demography, reproductive health and attempts to propagate the knowledge of genetics and medicine and of how to avoid mass illnesses for the future generation and how to strive for a healthier offspring and gene pool. I`m afraid, all UNFPA experts shal be branded Nazi this way. Eugenics was initially about all that. The differences between different races are a fact but, as I said before and do not tire to repeat: there is nothing humiliating, demeaning or offencisve in this fact, this is just as all of us have different blood groups, psychological types and physical abilities. If one type is more prone to a certain illness, we have to recognise and try to change the situation and not blithely avoid thinking and talking about it wallowing in the false political correctness. If some "nice" people have attached their own motives and wishes to this science - a big thanks to them.
    Last edited by Setwale_Charm; 26th August 2006 at 4:35 AM.

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    Re: What is racism?

    Well, thank you for your point of view, Setwale_Charm. But you must forgive my obtuseness, since I don't understand what set off your rant.

    Was it something I said?

    I invite you to read my post (#51) again, and pretend you are not angry at me, or that you still think well of me.
    In case I was unable to express myself completely in that post, allow me to clarify, without editing:
    My observation says that I was MISTAKEN in equating Eugenics with racism. Further, it mentions clearly that the efforts IN THE PRESENT TIME are geared towards the betterment of humanity.
    In passing, I also recognized that MY MISTAKE was to identify the NAZIS with the concept of Eugenics because of their inhuman application of it.
    And, in my previous post, the only people identified as NAZIS are, in fact, the Nazis themselves.
    So, basically, congratulations for feeling the way you feel about science and the betterment of humanity. And, like you, I also repeat across many different threads in many different subjects the same thing, over and over, and do not get tired of mentioning it every chance I have:

    There is only one human race.


    I believe, if I read you correctly, and if you care to re-read my previous post, that this last statement is the only place where we disagree.
    Thank you, again, for your earnest opinion.
    D.
    ¿88 relatos descarriados? Un leve desliz…

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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everness View Post
    I'm trying to put together a survey/test to help people reflect on their racism or lack of racism. There will be 10 questions. I'd appreciate your feedback. I'm planning to apply it to different races (not ethnicities) and to keep it simple I'll use the categories: white, black, yellow, brown, and red. I'll use white as default just to pilot the questions but the racial categories can be changed accordingly.

    Question #1. If your 17-year-old daughter shows up at your home with her new black boyfriend and states that she wants to marry him, how would you react? Pick only one response.

    a) You'll blurt something that will contain the expression "over my dead body."

    b) You'll embrace your daughter and tell her that you are proud of her for being an inclusive and non-racist individual.

    c) You'll have a drink after 15 years of sobriety.

    d) You'll pass out.

    e) There will no response (fatal heart attack).

    d) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of joy.

    e) You'll call your mother immediately to share the news while crying out of desperation.

    f) After doing a), c), d) and/or e), you'll go to the bathroom look at yourself in the mirror and say, "You are a f*cking racist (your name here). Get your act together right now and let your daughter live her life."

    f) You'll give your daughter and her black boyfriend a short unbiased lecture on the pros and cons of mixed marriages.

    g) You'll wait until your daughter falls asleep, drug her up, and move to Costa Rica the next day.

    h) Other (please specify)


    So people, what do you think? Is it user-friendly? Any changes before I move to question #2? Items that I left out or should leave out?
    I was just wondering what a U.S. American with black skin thinks about this test.

    .,,

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    Re: What is racism?

    Oh dear! I am not angry with you Daniel! Not in the least! In fact, I am much happier to hear that sort of opinion than something homophobic. I just read your thoughts about genetical sciences and that really made me want to speak on the aspect which surrounds me in my daily life too. I suppose, one sees the common accusation and puts the author of it into the usual category.. My post was addressed not only to you. This is one of the major problems of the racism - anti-racism thing, I think. I must say that political correctness has really gone too far and anti-racists have turned into bigots just as much as racists are. You wouldn`t be able to imagine what one has to go through in my field. Any attempt to deal with subjects related to the aspect of different nations/races is simply fraught with life danger or, at least, with the danger of being "pelt down" with rotten tomatoes. You cannot publish anything on genetical differences and diseases existing in Africa, especially, those brought in by immigrants to the West. This is part of national health analysis but one cannot do it!!what if it will offend somebody. One cannot publish anything on low educational standards in some countries because they go and complain of racism! And the fact that eugenics has received such a negative label and people give a jump at the simple suggestion that we should strive to outbreed the defective genes and treat people for that before they can have children, has led to some countries having 80% of all children born completely degenerate. But many scientific truths may be considered not politically correct these days.

    Furthemore, it is not only science. One is not able to publish the statistic on the immigrant crime in some countries which is vital for social workers. My friends from the police complain of having to go through much harassment in order to charge somebody of another ethnic background and communities with most appalling crimes, there `s always the fear of not being politically correct. I know for myself that it is extremely difficult to extradite some criminals from certain countries because you cannot even talk of them being terrorists or criminals. It has nothing to do with the colour of the skin, other races are not more murderous but it looks like for fear of discovering something of the kind many begin to make just absurd decisions.
    And you constantly hear those words 'racist' and "nazi" used without any relevance, those have just become handy words, I feel. We do not profit from going to other extremes The human race is one, so let`s treat it as one with no preferential treatment for some or vice-versa.

  17. #57
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Setwale_Charm View Post
    Oh dear! I am not angry with you Daniel! Not in the least! In fact, I am much happier to hear that sort of opinion than something homophobic. I just read your thoughts about genetical sciences and that really made me want to speak on the aspect which surrounds me in my daily life too. I suppose, one sees the common accusation and puts the author of it into the usual category.. My post was addressed not only to you. This is one of the major problems of the racism - anti-racism thing, I think. I must say that political correctness has really gone too far and anti-racists have turned into bigots just as much as racists are. You wouldn`t be able to imagine what one has to go through in my field. Any attempt to deal with subjects related to the aspect of different nations/races is simply fraught with life danger or, at least, with the danger of being "pelt down" with rotten tomatoes. You cannot publish anything on genetical differences and diseases existing in Africa, especially, those brought in by immigrants to the West. This is part of national health analysis but one cannot do it!!what if it will offend somebody. One cannot publish anything on low educational standards in some countries because they go and complain of racism! And the fact that eugenics has received such a negative label and people give a jump at the simple suggestion that we should strive to outbreed the defective genes and treat people for that before they can have children, has led to some countries having 80% of all children born completely degenerate. But many scientific truths may be considered not politically correct these days.

    Furthemore, it is not only science. One is not able to publish the statistic on the immigrant crime in some countries which is vital for social workers. My friends from the police complain of having to go through much harassment in order to charge somebody of another ethnic background and communities with most appalling crimes, there `s always the fear of not being politically correct. I know for myself that it is extremely difficult to extradite some criminals from certain countries because you cannot even talk of them being terrorists or criminals. It has nothing to do with the colour of the skin, other races are not more murderous but it looks like for fear of discovering something of the kind many begin to make just absurd decisions.
    And you constantly hear those words 'racist' and "nazi" used without any relevance, those have just become handy words, I feel. We do not profit from going to other extremes The human race is one, so let`s treat it as one with no preferential treatment for some or vice-versa.
    Which countries have 80% of all children born completely degenerate?
    Why do immigrants make up a higher proportion of the prison population per capita than native citizens in ALL countries?
    Why are so few immigrants on a per capita basis wealthy when compared to native citizens?

    .,,

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    Re: What is racism?

    Thank you for your reassurances, and sorry to hear of all the ill-will you must wade through in order to pursue your endeavors.
    Godspeed, as it were.

    And I commend you for this sentence, especially in light of the topic of this thread. Allow me to highlight it for everyone's enjoyment:

    Originally posted by Setwale_Charm
    The human race is one, so let`s treat it as one with no preferential treatment for some or vice-versa.
    ¿88 relatos descarriados? Un leve desliz…

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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Setwale_Charm View Post
    "the betterment of humanity by nullifying the defective genes and attempting to eliminate hereditary illnesses" is what — the whole concept of evolution is about!

    the extinction of the weak and the incapable was at all times the natural and essential condition for the surviving not only of humans but of all living beings.
    Congratulations Setwale, you have managed to totally misunderstand "the whole concept of evolution".

    It is not the "weak and incapable" who become extinct, it is those not best suited to their environment. Nor is evolution about the betterment of a species - think about it - how can any cross-breeding benefit the healthiest in a species? It cannot.
    Imagine the quintessential lion — the fastest, the keenest eye, the sharpest teeth, etc., etc. Now which lioness will it mate with? With whichever is available? With the best lioness - it will not match him in profile - and its offspring will be "less" than he is.

    What heredity is about is constant modification, blind progress, there is no 'aim' to heredity, no goal towards which the genes are striving. There is no purpose to the modifications, they are just what happens. That they sometimes throw up individuals who are stunningly suited to their particular environmental niche is a side-effect, and one which ensures that that individual has a much better chance of passing on its genes to the next and succeeding generations.

    Hereditary illnesses are part and parcel of evolution. They go hand-in-hand with hereditary benefits.

    The "weak and incapable" in one generation, might well be, when the environment changes, the strong and the capable in the next. Evolution doesn't "know", or care, which genes survive. The weaker animals driven out of their grasslands by stronger, fiercer creatures were the ones which crossed the landbridge from Asia into America - were they being eliminated by nature?

    Darwin didn't coin the phrase "survival of the fittest", but he did agree with it when he came across Spencer's use of it - this concept of the word "fit" was about 'best fitting into one's environmental niche'.

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    Re: What is racism?

    Thank you, Maxiogee. I am always delighted to find a colleague who knows better . You have been helpful once and I appreciate your eagerness. It so happens unfortunately that colleagues sometimes misunderstand totally my posts, and what quarrel they have with my words or what quarrel I have with their words I cannot see for the second time already, but that is no problem. We do have that in the scientific world, guys . By the way, I am not among Darwinists, that is curable, I believe. Altogether, I do not see where I contradict yu apart from two minor details.



    Just Thank you for not saying some "F" word ( I still hold on to things that Jesus and Mohammad wouldn`t do, poor me!) and please, do not say 'bother!; either. I have always found it ...unpleasant...hindering my evolution.
    Last edited by Setwale_Charm; 26th August 2006 at 10:16 AM.

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