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Thread: What is racism?

  1. #161
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    That is because you are associating "ethnicity" with culture.
    Why did you leave the second sentence out of the quote? It is most relevant to my comment. To be paraphrased in this manner is disturbing.

    .,,

  2. #162
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    Re: What is racism?

    A definite definiton: racism = pendejismo.

  3. #163
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    Re: What is racism?

    Moderator Note: The posts about cross-cultural marriage have been moved to the thread on cross-cultural love found here.
    "The trouble with normal is it always gets worse." Bruce Cockburn

  4. #164
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by scotu View Post
    What's wrong with associating "ethnicity" with culture, especially if it's done without stereotyping?
    Read my earlier posts in this thread.

    I guess you have no problem with people making statements such as:

    "You have Japanese blood in you, why do you act so white? I can't believe that white guy was teaching you how to use chopsticks. Come on, you're Japanese! I don't care that you were born and grew up in America. The fact that you can't use chopsticks or speak Japanese despite your ancestors being Japanese shows that you have forsaken and abandoned your own culture. You are white-washed."

    Associating ethnicity with culture is racism. Saying that people should take on certain behaviors, traditions, and customs not by personal choice but by ethnic/racial background is racism.

    ---
    To .,,: I think the second part was cut off from the quote because part of the thread was split off into another one.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Cross-cultural love

    Quote Originally Posted by .,, View Post
    Nigger is simply not used in Australia or at least I have never heard it used.
    Well, these were your words:
    Wog lost the disrespectful overtone in a similar way that nigger is losing the negative overtone.
    If this word is "simply not used in Australia", then I am confused about your comment. If you have never used the word yourself, what basis are you using to judge the seriousness of this world elsehwere?
    I feel very sad for the U.S.A. or any other country where a person could be killed for using a word.
    Yes, it is sad. However, perhaps you do not know a lot about the story of racial problems in the US. What I was talking about is an extreme case. If you go into a ghetto area in a city such as Baltimore, calling someone black there a "nigger" is nearly suicidal.

    On the other hand, where I live, a person using such a word as an insult would be treated like a scum—the person using the insult. It would be viewed as an unfortunate situation, and most likely everyone around the person insulted would express shame and suport.

    There are many interracial marriagnes where I live. Frankly, no one thinks a thing about it. The US is a very large country. Opinions about such things vary more than you might believe from place to place.

    Gaer
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  6. #166
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    Re: Cross-cultural love

    G'day Gaer,
    Wog lost the negative overtone when wogs usurped the word and used it as a self description. This process is now virtually completed in Australia.
    Nigger is being been usurped in U.S. America and is being used as a self description. This process is not complete and I am not sure if it ever will.
    Nobody owned a wog. Nobody flogged a wog. Nobody lynched a wog.
    Wog was never as nasty a word as was nigger.
    I will use wog with gay abandon but I will eschew nigger.

    .,,

  7. #167
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    Re: Cross-cultural love

    Quote Originally Posted by .,, View Post
    Nigger is being been usurped in U.S. America and is being used as a self description. This process is not complete and I am not sure if it ever will.
    The problem is that it is only used in the "self-description" category among blacks/African-Americans, and it is also class-ralated too, in my experience.

    In this situation, I think we are talking about a group that has been descriminated against taking the "sting" out of a very hurtful word by using it among themselves, but this is not the same as a word becoming less hurtful in general usage.

    Anyone in the US will understand what I mean, I think, but it might not be so obvious in other places.

    Gaer
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  8. #168
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    Re: What is racism?

    Since we are drifting away from the topic, Fernando, I thought it would be better to continue here, before the moderators discontinue our conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    Well, in a way they were a race on their own, were not they?
    In a loose sense, you can say that. The technical term that's used nowadays is "endogamous". They refuse or avoid marrying outside their class. But still, amongst themselves, they have generally paid little attention to racial lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    How should I? I belong to a religion whose founder had a deep distrust of elites and preferred to tie with prostitutes and publicans.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    I really think that Hitler was a racist. Maybe he used the dumbness of the masses but he believed in the very scum he preached.
    I've been searching for a quote or statement I once read on the net. Here's the best I've found so far:

    Scholar Max Weinreich quotes Hitler as admitting to an associate that "in the scientific sense, there is no such thing as race." But Hitler goes on to note that as a politician he needs a conception "which enables the order which has hitherto existed on [an] historic basis to be abolished and an entirely new and anti-historical order enforced and given such an intellectual basis. ...

    source
    What a shame it's so difficult to track down! It may be one of the most surprising quotes of the 20th century, although perhaps it shouldn't be.
    Last edited by cherine; 31st July 2007 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Adding link to "the topic" :)
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro y La Torre View Post
    When was the last time you saw a European monarch marrying a black person?
    I'm not sure a European monarch ever married a person of the darkest shade of black, but there were some marriages with people of mixed blood in the past. Not many, to be sure, and their number has dropped to nill in the last centuries. However, as Fernando pointed out, they at least have the excuse that, as a rule, they don't marry anyone outside the continent's nobility.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  10. #170
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by .,, View Post
    ANY form of racism is racism. ANY effort to separate people into subgroups to assign traits is racism. Smartarsed backstabbers use 'positive' or 'enlightened' or 'intelligent' racism to try to pitifully hided their own lack of spine.
    Any statement that claims that one ethnic group has inherent biological advantages over another ethnic group must be looked at as saying the reverse - it is pure logic. If one group is 'better' then there must be a group that is 'worse' so that the 'better' group can be compared with it.
    A 'partial' racist is still a racist. A racist is not necessarily a xenophobe.

    .,,
    Can anyone explain what "enlightened racism" means?
    I don't get it. Or "intelligent racism". Or "positive racism".
    How can racism be positive or enlightened or intelligent.
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  11. #171
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    In a loose sense, you can say that. The technical term that's used nowadays is "endogamous". They refuse or avoid marrying outside their class. But still, amongst themselves, they have generally paid little attention to racial lines.
    Well, certainly this is not a matter of race, rather of class. There is a relation, but the problem nowadays is too small to be signifi¡cant. There is classism (outside nobility), which relates with racial lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    What a shame it's so difficult to track down! It may be one of the most surprising quotes of the 20th century, although perhaps it shouldn't be.
    I must admit that my sources about Hitler are second-handed. According to Ian Kershaw's biography, Hitler became an anti-semite in one point between his stay in Vienna and (more probably) the end of WWI. Again, according to Kershaw, its anti-semitism was genuine, even irrational.
    Only a Spanish speaker. If you need an exact translation, wait for better opinions.

  12. #172
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexacohen View Post
    Can anyone explain what "enlightened racism" means?
    I don't get it. Or "intelligent racism". Or "positive racism".
    How can racism be positive or enlightened or intelligent.
    I did not know the term, but take into consideration that racism was encouraged by the end of 19th century for darwinism (social darwinism). So, many people watched History as a clash of races.

    Many anti-darwinists of beginning 20th century (Tolstoi, as an example) rejected it as a way to reject its preceived consequences: the oppression of some races for other races. Stephen Jay Gould (I can not find now the reference) tell the story of an American quasi-socialist which becomes a Christian creationist, since many Prussian high officers in WWI justified their like of the war as a natural impulse, as all of them were darwinists (and, possibly, more "enlightened") that their Christian (or not) opponents.
    Only a Spanish speaker. If you need an exact translation, wait for better opinions.

  13. #173
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    Well, certainly this is not a matter of race, rather of class. There is a relation, but the problem nowadays is too small to be signifi¡cant. There is classism (outside nobility), which relates with racial lines.
    I agree, race is intertwined with class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    I must admit that my sources about Hitler are second-handed. According to Ian Kershaw's biography, Hitler became an anti-semite in one point between his stay in Vienna and (more probably) the end of WWI. Again, according to Kershaw, its anti-semitism was genuine, even irrational.
    Being antisemitic and believing that there's a scientific basis for race are two different things. After all, Jews are not a race in a strictly biological sense. They are more of an ethnicity that combines common descent with common religion and culture. I think Hitler's antisemitism was quite genuine (ridiculously so; he believed in international Jewish conspiracies, and that kind of nonsense).

    Of course, it's quite possible that he was simply not entirely rational in what he 'believed'.
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  14. #174
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    Being antisemitic and believing that there's a scientific basis for race are two different things. After all, Jews are not a race in a strictly biological sense. They are more of an ethnicity that combines common descent with common religion and culture.
    Agreed, but "modern" anti-semitism is based in race rather than in ethnicity. Traditional anti-semitism (for example, in the Catholic world) was based in religion. So, a Jew who converted to Christianism was automatically no more a Jew. Of course, then the discussion moved to cripto-Judaism and "marranos" which covered a racist feeling.

    For Nazis it made no difference if the Jew was Jew, Christian, Muslim or Nazi: he was to be destroyed. The laws that defined what a Jew was were based in ethnicity, not in religion, which was used only as evidence of the race.
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  15. #175
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    Re: What is racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexacohen View Post
    Can anyone explain what "enlightened racism" means?
    I don't get it. Or "intelligent racism". Or "positive racism".
    How can racism be positive or enlightened or intelligent.
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  16. #176
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    Re: What is racism?

    Alors, j'irais demander à ces gens-là...
    In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep. I am a platypus.

  17. #177
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    Re: What is racism?

    Greetings!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando View Post
    I did not know the term, but take into consideration that racism was encouraged by the end of 19th century for darwinism (social darwinism). So, many people watched History as a clash of races.

    Many anti-darwinists of beginning 20th century (Tolstoi, as an example) rejected it as a way to reject its preceived consequences: the oppression of some races for other races. Stephen Jay Gould (I can not find now the reference) tell the story of an American quasi-socialist which becomes a Christian creationist, since many Prussian high officers in WWI justified their like of the war as a natural impulse, as all of them were darwinists (and, possibly, more "enlightened") that their Christian (or not) opponents.

    Social Darwinism is just racism with a perverted understanding of a new branch of biology as its backing. It is a pseudoscience, and has absolutely nothing to do with actual Darwinism. Also, I don't believe it relates to "enlightened racism," which, although I'm not sure, I would imagine is being racist or discriminatory in spite of rejecting the pseudoscience behind race differences.
    Last edited by dasboot; 1st August 2007 at 1:13 AM.

  18. #178
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    Re: What is racism?

    I think it is discriminating people of other races only beacause of the race in all ways.
    Sorry for my English

  19. #179
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    Re: What is racism?

    Today everyone is entitled to feel offended about something - no matter how trivial. The next time someone call me a 'White Man' they will have a Writ on their doorstep the following day.

    No sir, the days of Caucasian humour have long passed, thanks to the importation of 'Political Correctness' in most Western countries. Want to tell a joke.....Have you heard the one about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Scotsman....forget it.
    Take my answers to your questions in "English Only" with a grain of salt.

  20. #180
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    Re: What is racism?

    People have traits that comes with genetics. But these things are not related to the outdated concept of race.

    For example people whose ancestors mostly were horse riders of the steppe and lived on horses are not as long as many people in Europe. They are 175cm average.

    Or people who did not took refuge in caves but lived and hunted outdoors in ancient times (Asians) have slightly slanted eyes.

    Race is certainly outdated in a globalized world where any person can make a baby with anyone in less than a day. Also it certainly did not have any meaning for example in Central Asia where many different looking people intermingled. Their race was Central Asia.

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