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Thread: no les voy a invitar

  1. #1
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    no les voy a invitar

    I am trying to understand direct and indiect object pronouns and I dont understand the use of les in this sentence I found
    No voy a invitar a Pedro y Ernesto a la fiesta
    No les voy a invitar a la fiesta
    is pedro y ernesto a indirect object please explain

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    Re: les

    No, it is direct (Pedro and Ernesto are invited). This is known as leísmo, the use of the dative where it corresponds to use the direct object pronouns, something normal in Spain...
    In man I trust.

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    Re: les

    Quote Originally Posted by rthomes View Post
    I am trying to understand direct and indiect object pronouns and I dont understand the use of les in this sentence I found
    No voy a invitar a Pedro y Ernesto a la fiesta
    No les voy a invitar a la fiesta
    is pedro y ernesto a indirect object please explain
    Well, in certain countries there is a tendency to use IO pronouns. This is called leísmo. In other countries, a DO pronoun would be used. In those countries, the second sentence would be "No los voy a invitar a la fiesta."

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    Re: les

    Bear in mind that,according to RAE,only "le" as a direct object ,not "les" (with persons) is admisible.Le/les as DO is very common where I live in everyday Spanish.I usually say in speech ,although I know that it´s a mistake.
    We should never walk alone .

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    So, if I'm speaking Spanish as a second language, is it okay for me to justify my "leísmo" because I'm too lazy to think it through ("Does invitar take a direct or indirect object" I invited him. Oh! D.O. Thus, La/Lo) Lol - so much thinking! I want to say it correctly, there must be a better way. I wish they would tell you in the dictionary that "invitar" takes a D.O. I guess there are only a few verbs that are not like that (escribir - write the letter to him, dar - give the gift to him, etc ) Maybe I'll look for a list. I did a research paper about this "Leísmo" phenomenon. Do all Spaniards use it "incorrectly"? Very interesting. I used to live in Spain. <3

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MadinaUS View Post
    So, if I'm speaking Spanish as a second language, is it okay for me to justify my "leísmo" because I'm too lazy to think it through ("Does invitar take a direct or indirect object" I invited him. Oh! D.O. Thus, La/Lo) Lol - so much thinking! I want to say it correctly, there must be a better way. I wish they would tell you in the dictionary that "invitar" takes a D.O. I guess there are only a few verbs that are not like that (escribir - write the letter to him, dar - give the gift to him, etc ) Maybe I'll look for a list. I did a research paper about this "Leísmo" phenomenon. Do all Spaniards use it "incorrectly"? Very interesting. I used to live in Spain. <3

    Hi, MadinaUS,

    "All" not. I'm Spaniard and use them correctly. It's a complex phenomenon, difficult to explain. There is much information posted on the forum.

    Cheers!
    Verba uolant, sed scripta manent. Escribiré hoy para enorgullecerme en el mañana.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Oh, I'm well aware of the phenomenon. I've read countless academic articles on them, but I still have questions, of course.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MadinaUS View Post
    I wish they would tell you in the dictionary that "invitar" takes a D.O. I guess there are only a few verbs that are not like that (escribir - write the letter to him, dar - give the gift to him, etc )
    Only a few? Hardly. There are countless such verbs, and in the vast majority of cases it is perfectly obvious. The direct object of escribir is what you write (a letter, etc.), and you obviously can't write a person as a direct object. You may be getting confused because in English we are much vaguer about this, and can say things like "I wrote her yesterday." That "her" looks like a DO, but is of course an IO.

    Personally, I don't worry too much about leísmo because where I (and you) live it doesn't come up much. I try (and usually fail) to speak like a well educated Mexican, and I think everyone should choose a "flavor" of Spanish with which they identify most closely, and stick to that one. If you plan to spend time in Spain, you'll want to be familiar with leísmo, and you can get practice by reading Spanish blogs and news articles, watching Spanish movies, and so on.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    I completely understand Leísmo and grammar. I'm just saying, sometimes, in that moment of choosing "le" or "lo", I stop for a moment to think. (Yeah, sure, there are MANY verbs, but what I'm saying, as a Spanish teacher, is that it would be more helpful to learn it in a systematic way. Create a list and go from there.) Obviously, "leísmo" reflects the wrong grammar, so I would never practice that. (Leísmo is a natural reflection of the simplification of language overtime. Just as, overtime, English has lost most of it's subjunctive mood usage...Languages simply simplify.) I know you can't write a person as a direct object, but obviously when you speak (or write), you're focussing on content, not necessarily on the grammar in that moment.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MadinaUS View Post
    I completely understand Leísmo and grammar. I'm just saying, sometimes, in that moment of choosing "le" or "lo", I stop for a moment to think. (Yeah, sure, there are MANY verbs, but what I'm saying, as a Spanish teacher, is that it would be more helpful to learn it in a systematic way. Create a list and go from there.) Obviously, "leísmo" reflects the wrong grammar, so I would never practice that. (Leísmo is a natural reflection of the simplification of language overtime. Just as, overtime, English has lost most of it's subjunctive mood usage...Languages simply simplify.) I know you can't write a person as a direct object, but obviously when you speak (or write), you're focussing on content, not necessarily on the grammar in that moment.

    I'm totally agree with that. To me, it's a phenomenon causing impoverishment in my language. But not everybody thinks so and less in Madrid.

    A pleasure.
    Last edited by Julvenzor; 2nd May 2013 at 6:55 PM.
    Verba uolant, sed scripta manent. Escribiré hoy para enorgullecerme en el mañana.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    http://www.wikilengua.org/index.php/Le%C3%ADsmo << While we're on the topic, do you think this is a good reference? If you have a chance to verify its accuracy and value, let me know. Gracias, MD

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by rthomes View Post
    I am trying to understand direct and indiect object pronouns and I dont understand the use of les in this sentence I found
    No voy a invitar a Pedro y Ernesto a la fiesta
    No les voy a invitar a la fiesta
    is pedro y ernesto a indirect object please explain
    Para que no se confunda y no se complique la vida, diga: No los voy a invitar a la fiesta (a Pedro y a Ernesto). Pedro y Ernesto son complementos de acusativo (objeto directo)

    Como Pedro y Ernesto son complementos de acusativo, pregúntese: ¿A quiénes no voy a invitar? A ellos, a Pedro y a Ernesto

    Cuando se trata de complemento de dativo, pregúntese "a quién(es) le(s) + el verbo de la oración": La mezzsoprano cantó un aria al público que la aclamaba / La mezzosoprano le cantó un aria. ¿A quién le cantó un aria la mezzosoprano? (Al público que la aclamaba) Complemento de dativo (objeto indirecto). Como el verbo en la pregunta acepta "le" entonces hablamos de un dativo u objeto indirecto.

    En resumen: la, lo, los son pronombres de acusativo; y le, les son pronombres de dativo
    Ese fenómeno del leísmo ya después lo comprenderá y se dará cuenta qué usos tiene.

    Hay mucha diferencia entre usar "les" y "los":
    No les voy a invitar un helado (a ustedes / a ellos)
    No los voy a invitar a mi fiesta (a ustedes / a ellos)
    Last edited by autrex2811; 3rd May 2013 at 8:29 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    I understand the grammar. I'm just talking about that split second of doubt when you're talking or writing when you don't want to stop and think about it. (To have already learned it flat out is better.) (I wrote a paper and a did presentation about this )

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Did anyone look at the link? Let me know if you think it's good. I think it's great, so far. It's a "wikilink" or something, so I wasn't sure if anything "wiki" is completely legit. (legitimate)

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MadinaUS View Post
    http://www.wikilengua.org/index.php/Le%C3%ADsmo << While we're on the topic, do you think this is a good reference? If you have a chance to verify its accuracy and value, let me know. Gracias, MD
    I read it and all they say is correct but there is much more to say about it (but can one expect from a webpage that it treats it in all its complexity?)
    Mientras el asno está echado, no puede estar levantado. (Timoneda)

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Oh, yes, there is much more to say, but it's a great reference. Thank you.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by MadinaUS View Post
    ...there must be a better way. I wish they would tell you in the dictionary that "invitar" takes a D.O. ... <3
    Am I missing the point? Most dictionaries will tell you if a verb is transitive.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Quote Originally Posted by inib View Post
    Am I missing the point? Most dictionaries will tell you if a verb is transitive.
    Indeed. The following is from the WR dictionary, and gives both forms of the verb.

    invitar vtr (convidar) invite vtr
    Note: Seguido de la preposición "a".
    Mis amigos nos invitaron a comer.
    invitar vi (incitar) invite vi
    El calor invita a que nos demos un baño.

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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    Yes, perhaps I should have said "...if a verb can be used transitively".

  20. #20
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    Re: no les voy a invitar

    There are tree types of verbs: Transitive, Intransitive, and Transitive verbs that have both a Direct and Indirect object. I hope I enlightened you. Anyway, none of you guys are getting the point. It's not about understanding the grammar intellectually, it's about accessing the information at a split second's notice without having to think about it!
    Last edited by Lis48; 4th May 2013 at 9:32 AM. Reason: Please be respectful

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