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Thread: Palatalization in English

  1. #21
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Quote Originally Posted by kidika View Post
    .
    I wouldn´t say that ñ is palatized or whatever, I would say it´s palatal, there is a difference. In other words, palatized consonants are allophones---in Spanish, that is-- whereas the sound ñ, a palatal one, is a phoneme; it´s not a palatized n. Palatized n´s are n´s that are uttered next to a palatal phoneme, but remain being n´s all their lifes...
    I agree one hundred percent. That's why I wrote 'palatalized' n, in quotation marks.
    /ñ/ is a phoneme. But the n before/ y, ll, ch (my palatals in Spanish), becomes a (arrg, I can't find it. It's like an angma, but with the long leg to the left). I'm looking for the IPA, because you send me a link to Navarro Tomás, and the symbols are not clear - they probably drew them by hand).
    Still, this has nothing to do with 'shorten'.

    I found some examples in Sanskrit pramāṇitaṃ, mātṝṇām
    I can't find clearly printed examples in Yoruba, but many other languages have syllabic nasals.
    Last edited by duvija; 13th December 2012 at 12:02 AM. Reason: +examples
    Saludos.

  2. #22
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    I can only assume that the Concise Oxford Spanish Dictionary uses superscript j to represent something which isn't palatalisation.

    Unfortunately, I haven't been able to work out what that something is.
    In these shoes?

  3. #23
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Duvija in the link I posted, there are loads of phonetic representations. You need to go down the page to get to where I pointed out. But then again the dot under the Spanish n means that the sound is "interdental". So, it has nothing to do with the dot under the n in English, where it apparently indicates "syllabic n". Not quite the same. Loob--> <--me.

    To add insult to injury, the superscript j, in my mind is used in English only to indicate that in connected speech, words that end in an /I/ sound followed by a word that starts with a vowel sound, "undergo" a process known as "linking", whereby a new sound similar to /j/, only softer--thus the superscript /small flying j/-- is produced. Example: there is a linking j --represented with a small unidentified flying j, aka UFJ-- between the words: my arms /maI j a:mz/ Sorry, about the awful phonetic transcription there.

    That linking process is similar to the one that happens when in connected speech one word that ends in an /u:/ or /u/ sound come before a word that begins with a vowel. There we get the UFW, unedentified flying w. Example: you are /ju: w a:/. Again, sorry about the apalling attempt at representing those sounds. (Note that I can´t make neither the j nor the w, small and flying, but you already know the symbol if you´ve gone to the entry for threaten in the E-S dictionary)

    That is what really confused me yesterday. I had only seen that superscript to represent that linking process that occurs in connected speech, so I couldn´t make out what it meant in the word threaten, which I´m beginning to hate...
    Last edited by kidika; 13th December 2012 at 12:37 AM.
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

  4. #24
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Quote Originally Posted by kidika View Post
    Duvija in the link I posted, there are loads of phonetic representations. You need to go down the page to get to where I pointed out. But then again the dot under the Spanish n means that the sound is "interdental". So, it has nothing to do with the dot under the n in English, where it apparently indicates "syllabic n". Not quite the same. Loob--> <--me.

    To add insult to injury, the superscript j, in my mind is used in English only to indicate that in connected speech, words that end in an /I/ sound followed by a word that starts with a vowel sound, "undergo" a process known as "linking", whereby a new sound similar to /j/, only softer--thus the superscript /small flying j/-- is produced. Example: there is a linking j --represented with a small unidentified flying j, aka UFJ-- between the words: my arms /maI j a:mz/ Sorry, about the awful phonetic transcription there.

    That linking process is similar to the one that happens when in connected speech one word that ends in an /u:/ or /u/ sound come before a word that begins with a vowel. There we get the UFW, unedentified flying w. Example: you are /ju: w a:/. Again, sorry about the apalling attempt at representing those sounds. (Note that I can´t make neither the j nor the w, small and flying, but you already know the symbol if you´ve gone to the entry for threaten in the E-S dictionary)

    That is what really confused me yesterday. I had only seen that superscript to represent that linking process that occurs in connected speech, so I couldn´t make out what it meant in the word threaten, which I´m beginning to hate...
    Where exactly did you see the flying j marking linking? I've never seen it marked that way. Any particular author or country?
    Saludos.

  5. #25
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Quote Originally Posted by duvija View Post
    Where exactly did you see the flying j marking linking? I've never seen it marked that way. Any particular author or country?
    Gimson´s Pronunciation of English, page 306.
    Excellent book. Enjoy!
    Last edited by kidika; 13th December 2012 at 6:19 PM. Reason: wanted to add an image of the page, but couldn´t
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

  6. #26
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Quote Originally Posted by kidika View Post
    Gimson´s Pronunciation of English, page 306.
    Excellent book. Enjoy!
    Uh. Cruttenden tends to be good. I didn't know he came up with that stuff, instead of the y/w addition to either the end of a word, or the beginning of the next... (gotta check it out).
    Saludos.

  7. #27
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    linking j w.jpg

    I don´t know if you´ll be able to read it, but there you go.


    I believe that all the honours should go to A. C. Gimson, not to Cruttenden...
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

  8. #28
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Hi again kidika

    I've been trying to work out why the Concise Oxford Spanish Dictionary might be using superscript j. As you say, the dictionary uses it in its entry for frighten but not in its entry for lengthen; it also uses it in its entry for redden. Maybe it's something to do with syllabic 'n' after a dental consonant?

    Hmmm....

    I'll try to visit a local bookshop tomorrow and see if I can find a paper copy of the dictionary which explains the symbols.
    In these shoes?

  9. #29
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    Re: Palatalization in English

    Quote Originally Posted by Loob View Post
    Hi again kidika

    I've been trying to work out why the Concise Oxford Spanish Dictionary might be using superscript j. As you say, the dictionary uses it in its entry for frighten but not in its entry for lengthen; it also uses it in its entry for redden. Maybe it's something to do with syllabic 'n' after a dental consonant?

    Hmmm....

    I'll try to visit a local bookshop tomorrow and see if I can find a paper copy of the dictionary which explains the symbols.
    Strictly speaking, the English /t/ is not dental, it´s actually alveolar.
    Yes, it might be an attempt at representing an English sound, using the representation of a Spanish allophone...if that´s the case, it doesn´t make any sense whatever. And if it only indicates a palatalization of the /n/, it doesn´t make much sense either, as some people here are saying that that n is a syllabic n. Or if it indicates a palatalization, that one is so subtle that could be considered an allophone, rather than a phoneme...I guess....
    This morning one of my students discovered another pearl: little , so I guess there must be a whole bunch of words in the Spanish dictionary that display the UFJ. Funny thing is the English-English dictionary doesn´t...I guess they love Spanish speakers so much that they give us an extra symbol to worry about. Aren´t they adorable!

    Please fill us in if you come up with a sensible explanation!
    Last edited by kidika; 13th December 2012 at 9:40 PM.
    La música constituye una revelación más alta que ninguna filosofía. Beethoven

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