Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    I suppose you could imagine this kind of sentence:

    (1) The tracker (2) traced (3) the traces,
    which later on appeared to constitute (4) a track [a path] leading to the suspect, but not a (4b) railway (track)

    (5) EXTRA: the findings did not correspond, were not coherent [like 'rail']* with the facts.

    ---

    Not very stylish, but in Dutch you would have :
    (1) De speurder [detective, the tracker/tracer ?]/ de spoorzoeker -trace searcher, the tracker ?)

    (2) opsporen [a person] (track down) -- bespeuren (traced, but meaning: simply note, ...)

    (3) het spoor, de sporen,

    (4) het spoor [so: same as 3]
    > de spoorweg (railway)

    (5) EXTRA*: sporen met

    So in English I see 4 parallels out of 5. How about your language? If you use a different word, I'd be pleased to hear about the etymology, or the underlying metaphor at least.
    Last edited by Rallino; 17th November 2011 at 7:14 PM. Reason: Post rendered clearer upon request.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Native language
    Greek
    Age
    45
    Posts
    2,373

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    In Greek:

    To track
    : «Ιχνηλατώ» (ixnila'to); Classical verb «ἰχνηλατέω/ἰχνηλατῶ» (ĭxnēlă'tĕō [uncontracted]/ĭxnēlā'tō [contracted])--> to track, track out. Compound, neuter noun «ἴχνος» ('īxnŏs)--> lit. track, footstep metaph. trace (with unknown etymology) + verb «ἐλαύνω» (ĕ'launō, e'lavno in the modern language)--> to drive away, carry off, strike (when armed) with obscure etymology.
    Trace: See «ἴχνος» ('īxnŏs) above.
    The tracker/tracer is «ιχνηλάτης» (ixni'latis, m./f.).
    So, no TR-

    «Τροχιά» however (tro'ça, f.)--> orbit does contain the stem TR. It's a medieval construction in order to translate the Latin orbis. It derives from the ancient masculine noun «τροχός» (trŏ'xŏs) or «τρόχος» ('trŏxŏs)- «τροχός» in Modern Greek -which describes the wheel, ultimately from the ancient and modern Greek verb «τρέχω» ('trĕxō and 'trexo)--> to move quickly, run (PIE base *dʰregʰ-, to run)
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Sio you have the full series? But not 4a and 5, I believe. I did find Σιδηροτροχιά for railway track, but Σιδηρόδρομος for the railway itself (I believe the first element refers to iron). The Τροχιά did remind me of another homonym spoor, the English spur, meant to help a horseback rider to spur his horse, to make it move faster.

    Could there be a link ? I suddenly realize that it is etymologically related with track/ trace, indeed,but I can't seem to find an equivalent in Dutch... But then there is no sound link with spur/ spoor.
    Last edited by ThomasK; 6th November 2011 at 6:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Native language
    Greek
    Age
    45
    Posts
    2,373

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Sio you have the full series? But not 4a and 5, I believe. I did find Σιδηροτροχιά for railway track, but Σιδηρόδρομος for the railway itself (I believe the first element refers to iron).
    Indeed, they derive from «σίδηρος» ('siðiros, m.)--> iron; «σιδηροτροχιά» (siðirotro'ça, f.) is the railway track (lit. iron-orbit) and «σιδηρόδρομος» (siði'roðromos, m.) is the railway (lit. iron-road).
    Nr 5 is described by either «αντιστοιχώ» (andisti'xo), or, «ανταποκρίνομαι» (andapo'krinome), so nothing like TR-.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    The Τροχιά did remind me of another homonymic spoor, the English spur, meant to help a horseback rider to spur his horse, to make it move faster.

    Could there be a link ? I suddenly realize that it is etymologically related with track/ trace, indeed,but I can't seem to find an equivalent in Dutch... But then there is no sound link with spur/ spoor.
    Interesting, all your observations provide food for thought
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Pleased to hear that some considerations offer food for thought!

    I am a little surprised though at orbit as such: it reminds me of a round track, une piste in French, whereas I thought of a man-made path towards some place.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    I see there are not many replies. Feel free to keep your answers very brief! ;-)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Umeå, Sweden
    Native language
    Swedish (Göteborg)
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,721

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    I'm not sure whether to base the list on your English or Dutch list, I find them somewhat different. However, Swedish displays the following list:

    (1) spårare - tracker. n
    (2) spåra (upp) - track (down). v.
    (2b) (upp)spårad* - tracked. adj/n/past participle.
    (3+4) spår - track, trail, trace. n
    (5) No match.

    Notes:
    Adding upp to the verb spåra or the adjective/past participle spårad (the verb requires upp to be separately suffixed while the adjective/pp requires it to be incorporated as a prefix) gives them a perfective aspect.
    The noun spår is neuter and as such has as plural suffix.
    Linguistics is always descriptive. Never prescriptive.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    IdF
    Native language
    French (lower Normandy)
    Posts
    26,178

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    In French, I'm afraid we don't have words of the same family like this.

    1) le traqueur (animals) // poursuivant / détective (personnes)
    2) traquer quelqu'un (track sb down / hunt sb down) / suivre la trace de (follow the trace of)
    3) les traces
    4) la trace
    4b) la voie ferrée (railway track)
    5) correspondre / (there must be others but I can't think of others right now)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Native language
    Finnish
    Posts
    2,094

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Finnish:

    Jäljittäjä jäljitti jälkiä, joiden myöhemmin havaittiin muodostavan polun, joka johti epäillyn jäljille, mutta ei junarataa. 

    It's probably clear by now that jälki (G jäljen, P jälkeä) means 'footprint, trace, mark; the thing that you leave behind you (jälkeesi)'. Pay special attention to the words polku ('path' < polkea 'tread, stamp, stomp') and rata ('railroad track', <> Germanic 'trata/trad').

    There are some common jälki-related expressions. One of them is the abovementioned
    olla rikollisen jäljillä = lit. be on the criminal's footsteps (be after him, follow him in order to catch him)
    talosta ei ollut jälkeäkään = there wasn't a sign of the house
    olla oikeilla/väärillä jäljillä = be on the right/wrong track
    siivota omat jälkensä = clean up one's own mess

    And then, some strange derivations.
    jäljellä/jäljelle = left (over)
    Rasiassa oli jäljellä enää kolme suklaapalaa.
    jälkeen = after (illative)
    Kello viiden jälkeen tuli jo pimeä.
    jälkeenjäänyt = retard (lit. afterleft)
    + a dozen jälkeen (after) derivations, inluding jälkeläiset (posterity)
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    I understand polku is not etymologically linked with jälki, only semantically (the tread leaves an footprint). Very interesting is that I can copy your expressions when translating: they all refer to sporen, except for the last one; We only know: alle sporen opruimen (which can mean: to clean one's mess, but is more general).

    The link between trace and left is fairly evident, but I don't see a parallel in Dutch. My main question here would be: did jälke give rise to a postposition?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NCR,Luzon,Pilipinas
    Native language
    Tagalog
    Posts
    1,550

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    I suppose you could imagine this kind of sentence:

    (1) The tracker (2) traced (3) the traces,
    which later on appeared to constitute (4) a track [a path] leading to the suspect, but not a (4b) railway (track)

    (5) EXTRA: the findings did not correspond, were not coherent [like 'rail']* with the facts.

    ---

    Not very stylish, but in Dutch you would have :
    (1) De speurder [detective, the tracker/tracer ?]/ de spoorzoeker -trace searcher, the tracker ?)

    (2) opsporen [a person] (track down) -- bespeuren (traced, but meaning: simply note, ...)

    (3) het spoor, de sporen,

    (4) het spoor [so: same as 3]
    > de spoorweg (railway)

    (5) EXTRA*: sporen met

    So in English I see 4 parallels out of 5. How about your language? If you use a different word, I'd be pleased to hear about the etymology, or the underlying metaphor at least.
    I forgot some old words in Tagalog but here are few that i remember, 1.) Tracker= sumususog/bumabagtas 2.)Traced= Nasusog/Natunton 3.)Traces= Bakas/footprints 4.)Track= Daanan/bagtas <> I don't understand no. 5 explanation about the etymologies of these words will take time.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Do you see any common roots (without an etymological dictionary) ? (As for 5 : it is something like 'correspond with', because sporen can also refer to trainrails.)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NCR,Luzon,Pilipinas
    Native language
    Tagalog
    Posts
    1,550

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Do you see any common roots (without an etymological dictionary) ? (As for 5 : it is something like 'correspond with', because sporen can also refer to trainrails.)
    I see! number 5 is "Pathway" and it is "landas" in Tagalog.In the following words, Bumabagtas,nabagtas= the root word is "Bagtas".This word is old and archaic to Pilipino language.It means " the route" that has no definite trail but within a broader area that will lead to the right destination. In the word "Natunton" the related Tagalog word is "Tungtong" that means "Set the foot" or " standing in point of location".The meaning of "tunton" is " find"/ "i reached the place". Bakas is footprint or something marked in the pathway like the "bakas"/marks of wheels in the soft ground."Daanan" means the road from root word "Daan"(road) with other term in Tagalog like "lansangan"(road/street). These are the sample sentences that show how these words are used. 1.) Trace the route= susugin ang Daanan/Bagtasin ang Daanan. 2.)Can you pinpoint the exact location? Matunton mo kaya ang wastong Dako? 3.) The pathway to serenity= Ang landas patungo sa Katiwasayan/Landas ng katiwasayan. 4.) Another route= Iba pang daanan/lusutan. Note: I am using Tagalog terms/phrases that are not commonly used by the urban folks.The words may sound funny to most Pilipino, but i need to use them so that preciseness of Tagalog language will not change or be altered by the entries of loan words. I am using the Tagalog from Manila/Bulacan and Cavite.
    Last edited by mataripis; 3rd January 2012 at 2:32 PM.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    But then: is there a word like fitting in into the pathway, containing 'landas'? In the words you mention, I seem to find 'susu' and 'bak' as roots, but maybe I am simply wrong.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NCR,Luzon,Pilipinas
    Native language
    Tagalog
    Posts
    1,550

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    But then: is there a word like fitting in into the pathway, containing 'landas'? In the words you mention, I seem to find 'susu' and 'bak' as roots, but maybe I am simply wrong.
    The word "landas" is often used in poetry or teachings. but we can use landas as "pathway" in = 1.)There is the pathway to the next town= Nandiyan ang landas patungo sa kasunod na Bayan. 2.) The pathway to serenity is good morality.=Ang landas sa katiwasayan ay ang mabuting Dangal. /// The word "susug" has root word "Sug" meaning "to move while searching", and the word "Bakas" is original term for "mark" as a result of weight/pressure.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    I see! number 5 is "Pathway" and it is "landas" [path] in Tagalog.

    In the following words, Bumabagtas,nabagtas = the root word is "Bagtas". This word is old and archaic to Pilipino language.It means " the route" that has no definite trail but within a broader area that will lead to the right destination.

    In the word "Natunton" the related Tagalog word is Tungtong, which means "Set the foot" or " standing in point of location".The meaning of "tunton" is " find"/ "I reached the place".

    Bakas is footprint or something marked in the pathway like the "bakas"/marks of wheels in the soft ground. [TK: So traces...]

    "Daanan" means the road from root word "Daan"(road), with other term in Tagalog like "lansangan"(road/street).

    These are the sample sentences that show how these words are used.
    a1.) Trace the route= susugin ang Daanan/Bagtasin ang Daanan.
    a2.)Can you pinpoint the exact location? Matunton mo kaya ang wastong Dako?
    a3.) The pathway to serenity= Ang landas patungo sa Katiwasayan/Landas ng katiwasayan.
    a4.) Another route= Iba pang daanan/lusutan.

    Note: I am using Tagalog terms/phrases that are not commonly used by the urban folks.The words may sound funny to most Pilipinos, but i need to use them so that preciseness of Tagalog language will not change or be altered by the entries of loan words. I am using the Tagalog from Manila/Bulacan and Cavite.
    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    The word "landas" is often used in poetry or teachings. but we can use landas as "pathway" in =
    b3.)There is the pathway to the next town= Nandiyan ang landas patungo sa kasunod na Bayan.
    c3.) The pathway to serenity is good morality.=Ang landas sa katiwasayan ay ang mabuting Dangal.

    /// The word "susug" has root word "Sug" meaning "to move while searching", and the word "Bakas" is original term for "mark" as a result of weight/pressure.
    That information is quite interesting. As for 'sug': do you happen to have a sug-word referring to error (looking for something but not finding it, the original meaning of error).
    How come that tungtong referring to setting foot, and tunton to finding ? I may have taken the wrong path, may I not ?
    Could you explain bakas a little more and link the meaning to the above (a1)? Is it like marking, establishing a mark, literally ?
    Last edited by ThomasK; 7th January 2012 at 6:34 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NCR,Luzon,Pilipinas
    Native language
    Tagalog
    Posts
    1,550

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    That information is quite interesting. As for 'sug': do you happen to have a sug-word referring to error (looking for something but not finding it, the original meaning of error).
    How come that tungtong referring to setting foot, and tunton to finding ? I may have taken the wrong path, may I not ?
    Could you explain bakas a little more and link the meaning to the above (a1)? Is it like marking, establishing a mark, literally ?
    Sug means "to move" with clear form "isug"(move a little bit).(not exactly "error" /maybe "trials") . Tungtong can be expressed as = I am standing already in a holy ground= nakatayo/nakatungtong na ako sa banal na lupa. "Tunton" can be expressed as = Atlas, I reached/find the exact place.(Sa wakas, natunton ko na ang wastong Dako!). "Bakas" is an old term for "footprint"(in the sand) or "mark"(anything that were formed in the soft pathway)1.) There were footprints of the visitors in the sand.= may mga bakas ng paa ng mga panauhin sa buhanginan. 2.) But sometimes,past memories can be reffered as "bakas ng lumipas" = The past history have signs/clues that will tell/reveal the truth= Ang nakalipas na kasaysayan ay may tanda at bakas na magsasabi/maghahayag ng katotohanan.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    Sug means "to move" with clear form "isug"(move a little bit), not exactly "error" /maybe "trials".
    Tungtong can be expressed as in: I am standing already in a holy ground( nakatayo/nakatungtong na ako sa banal na lupa). "Tunton" can be expressed as = At last, I have reached/found the exact place (Sa wakas, natunton ko na ang wastong Dako!).
    "Bakas" is an old term for "footprint"(in the sand) or "mark"(anything that were formed in the soft pathway:
    1.) There were footprints of the visitors in the sand.= may mga bakas ng paa ng mga panauhin sa buhanginan.
    2.) But sometimes,past memories can be reffered as "bakas ng lumipas". As in: The past history have signs/clues that will tell/reveal the truth= Ang nakalipas na kasaysayan ay may tanda at bakas na magsasabi/maghahayag ng katotohanan.
    I like it because it is more precise now. Thanks! I wish to add though that to say the least, I am amazed at the meanings of "Tun(g)ton(g)".
    Last edited by ThomasK; 8th January 2012 at 2:39 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    Using Google Translate I found these for 'trace', tracking, noticing:

    Czech: sledovat, trasování, trasování
    Polish: śledź ślad śladu
    Lithuanian: atsekti pėdsakų pėdsakų
    Russian: проследить след след (I believe I recognize /sp/ all over !)
    Last edited by ThomasK; 12th March 2013 at 9:31 AM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Native language
    Hebrew
    Age
    21
    Posts
    1,935

    Re: TR- : from 'trace' to 'track'

    This thing just doesnt correspond with hebrew way of saying it; the structure would be more of
    (1)[the person whose job is to find] (2)[found/traced] (3)[the traces]

    though no parallels between numbers, each is its own word.
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •