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Thread: Shop

  1. #1
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    Shop

    Could you tell how you translate shop?

    I just mean the general word for the place where we buy things, or well, that small place, I mean, where we bought things. I do not mean special shops, like the grocer's, butcher's, not just the corner shop. (It might not be that simple sometimes, but OK...) Adn of course a refer to the origin of the word is very welcome !

    Dutch: winkel (corner)
    English : shop (originally a shed ?)
    French: magasin
    German: Laden or Geschäft
    ...

  2. #2
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    Re: Shop

    In Portuguese: loja, from French loge.

  3. #3
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    Re: Shop

    French:
    un magasin (nm) (general)
    une boutique (nf) (smaller)

    Sorry, I don't know the origin of these words.


  4. #4
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    Re: Shop

    Interesting, thank you both. Loge might refer to a little shed (1350 already), so I read, like the English shop... Boutique then seems based on O. Prov. botica, which then refer to Gr. apotheke [not farmako, as I first wrote!] ! I then find out that magasin is either based on Arabic maḵāzin, plural of maḵzan ‘storehouse, warehouse’, belonging tot the verb ḵazana ‘store'. But it got into French via the Italian magazzino ‘id.’ [before 1348], or the Provencal, indirectly attested in Marseille as medieval Lat. magazenum, a store in an Algerian coastal town’ [1228].
    Last edited by ThomasK; 5th January 2012 at 9:17 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Shop

    Czech:

    obchod, from the verb obcházeti (ob + choditi), a frequentative form of the verb obejíti (= to go round, Lat. obire, obambulare);

    Obchod means also 'business/Handel' (zahraniční/vnitřní obchod = der Außenhandel/Binnenhandel).

    prodejna (selling place), from the verb prodati (= to sell), from dáti (= to give);

    krám (colloq.), from German Kramladen;
    Last edited by bibax; 6th January 2012 at 2:49 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Shop

    That Arabic word (post no. 4) seems to be the source of Turkish "mağaza" (= "storehouse", "shop") too. Turkish also has "dükkân" for shop. The absence of vowel harmony in the latter suggests non-Turkish origin, and the elongated "a" may point to Arabic (not sure if there is a cognate in Arabic).
    It's the short words that get you.

  7. #7
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    Re: Shop

    Boutique then seems based on O. Prov. botica, which then refer to Gr. apotheke!
    Spanish bodega, Italian bottega.

    In Czech we have a cognate: putika/putyka (= a pub).
    Last edited by bibax; 6th January 2012 at 11:51 AM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Shop

    In Greek:

    «Κατάστημα» (ka'tastima, n.)--> lit. condition, state of affairs, metaph. establishment, a derivation of the Classical verb «καθίστημι» (kă'tʰĭstēmĭ)--> to ordain, appoint, set in order, in periphrases, to make.
    Colloquially, «μαγαζί» (maɣa'zi, n.), an Arabic loan word (maḵāzin) via Ottoman Turkish (mağaza).
    During holiday season, our women take a stroll in the «καταστήματα» (kata'stimata, pl. neuter) or the «μαγαζιά» (maɣazi'a, pl. neuter).

    Edit: According to the Portal for the Greek language, it's not via Turkish we've loaned the word «μαγαζί», but rather via the Venetian magazin.

    PS: Happy New Year.
    Last edited by apmoy70; 5th January 2012 at 9:01 PM.
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  9. #9
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    Re: Shop

    Thanks, ladies and gentlemen! That is quite a variety of words and origins. Quite interesting !

  10. #10
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    Re: Shop

    Finnish.

    The word is kauppa. It is in fact a Germanic borrowing (cf. German Kauf, Swedish köp 'purchase').

    Jos minä siivoan, niin käytkö sinä sillä välin kaupassa?
    If I clean, will you do the shopping meanwhile? (lit. 'visit the shop')
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

  11. #11
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    Re: Shop

    Croatian (BCS)

    trgovina <- trg (~square, market; a word similar to it exists in North Germanic languages - torg, a loanword from Russian if I recall correctly)
    dućan <- from the Turkish word that's already been mentioned by sound shift in this thread
    prodavaonica <- prodati (to sell) <- dati (to give); the Serbian and Bosnian registers use prodavnica

  12. #12
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    Re: Shop

    It is so amazing to me that this one concept (it is, isn't it) is translated in so many different ways. And it seems to refer to the kind of place (corner, booth, ...), to the action (selling, giving), ...

    What I just wondered about is: could it be a fairly recent phenomenon? In most cases, I guess, there were markets (for fresh products) and the places where craftsmen worked or stored their products (store, magasin/...).

  13. #13
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    Re: Shop

    In Japanese you say 店 /mi'se/

    As for the origin, it is an abbreviation of 見世棚 /miseda'na/, part of it comes from the shelves 棚 /da'na/ that the customers looked. Therefore the verb to look 見る /mi'ɽu/ transformed into a noun 見せ /mi'se/. Shelves 棚 /da'na/ can be used to say shop (店) as well.
    In the Edo period (1603 - 1868), in the red-light district, the harlots would invite the clients by preparing in advance the grid pattern of a room that faced the road. From there comes 見世 and 張り見世 /haɾimi'se/ which means ''displaying prostitutes behind a grille'', from the harlots that walk the streets among junior officers the term 見世女郎 misejorou /mised͡ʒo'ɾoː/ appeared, the term means low-class prostitute who was kept in a sort of cage at the front of the establishment.
    The kanji 店 per se implies the meaning of setting up a house in one place, it seems to be used to distinguish from peddlers(行商人) and open air-markets(市の露天).

    There are more ways to say shop/store, also as suffixes.

    Hope it was interesting
    Last edited by 涼宮; 6th January 2012 at 6:22 PM.
    Username: Suzumiya. 所詮この世は弱肉強食。強ければ生き、弱ければ死ぬ。-志々雄真実

  14. #14
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    Re: Shop

    Quote Originally Posted by DearPrudence View Post
    French:
    un magasin (nm) (general)
    The Russian word came from French: магазин /magazin/

    EDIT: the old word for small specialized shops was лавка /lavka/ = bench. Similar to the origin of the word "bank".

  15. #15
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    Re: Shop

    So I see some more trends:
    - place (corner, booth, ...),
    - particular objects (shelves, benches, tents [Kramladen, kraam]),
    - to the action (selling, buying, giving, storing), ...

    It might be interesting to get some more information :
    - Greek: originally a state of things simply ? Do you see a link with selling ?
    - Japanese: what are da'na precisely? The wooden boards, the racks ?
    - Turkish (and Croatian) : duccan - any idea of the origin, anyone?

    While reading about the лавка /lavka/, bench, I wondered whether we might not need to get back to that very basic person-to-person exchange system... ;-)

  16. #16
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    Re: Shop

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    - Turkish (and Croatian) : duccan - any idea of the origin, anyone?
    "Dokkan" means "shop" in Persian and Arabic too. Unfortunately I don't know what else (if anything) it means in those two languages.

    As to the etymology, I can't help much. All I know is the chronology of events:

    1) 7th century: Arab conquest of Persia. Many Arabic terms enter Persian.
    2) A couple of centuries later: Turkic-speaking peoples from Central Asia enter the area of Persian cultural influence situated to the north of present-day Iran. These peoples borrow many Persian terms, some of which were in turn Persian borrowings from Arabic.
    3) These Turkic-speaking peoples pass through Baghdad en route to Anatolia.
    4) 14th and 15th centuries: Ottoman Turks conquer most of the Balkans.

    Presumably the Ottomans took the word duccan/dükkân/dokkan to Croatia. But as to the origin of the word, I don't know:
    Originally Arabic, then loaned to Persian, which loaned it to Turkish
    Originally Persian, then loaned to Arabic at the time of the Arab invasion of Persia and later to the Turkic-speaking peoples when they appeared to the north of Persia
    Originally Persian, then loaned to the Turks who loaned it to Arabic while passing through Baghdad
    Originally Turkic, then loaned first to the Persians and then to the Arabs (I think this is unlikely, on account of the fact that in Turkish this word has an elongated "a", which is regarded as foreign to Turkish.)

    None of the above?

    Rather a mystery!
    Last edited by sound shift; 7th January 2012 at 3:16 PM.
    It's the short words that get you.

  17. #17
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    Re: Shop

    This is quite nice: how word etymology brings up history... But I might have found the answer (my italics) at a Wikipedia site where Arabic influence on Spanish is shown:

    1. [Spanish] adoquín: paving-stone, cobble; block. From Arabic Dukkan bench of rock or wood.
    Could anyone now refer me to a (cultural) history of shops ? ;-)
    Last edited by ThomasK; 7th January 2012 at 3:36 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: Shop

    Well done, Thomas. I was only reading about "adoquín" yesterday, but I didn't spot the connection with "dukkan".
    It's the short words that get you.

  19. #19
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    Re: Shop

    In Tagalog, to shop is " Mamili(h)" meaning to select the things to buy.The origin of "Mamili(h)" is "Mamili' "(to select) from root word "pili"(select). But when buying one or few items the word "bumili" is used.In buy and sell the verb is "Mangalakal"( trading).
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

  20. #20
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    Re: Shop

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    It might be interesting to get some more information :
    - Japanese: what are da'na precisely? The wooden boards, the racks ?
    Yes, precisely the racks. Here you see a lot of images http://www.google.co.ve/search?tbm=i...l617l1.2.1l4l0
    Username: Suzumiya. 所詮この世は弱肉強食。強ければ生き、弱ければ死ぬ。-志々雄真実

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