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Thread: Urdu, Hindi: mere se - mere ko

  1. #1
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    Urdu, Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    Here is a thread that discusses "tere ko"

    What about other postpositions after mere, are they also incorrect? Should mujh be used instead?

    Here are some examples:

    us ne mere se poochaa, ...
    tum mere se aage kaise pohanche?
    mere meN ab taaqat nahiiN hai.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    "mere" is also used quite often, particularly in speech, so I'd say not incorrect. A language is what people speak, not what grammar books recommend(ed).

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Quote Originally Posted by daee View Post
    Here is a thread that discusses "tere ko"

    What about other postpositions after mere, are they also incorrect? Should mujh be used instead?

    Here are some examples:

    us ne mere se poochaa, ...
    tum mere se aage kaise pohanche?
    mere meN ab taaqat nahiiN hai.

    Thanks.

    "tere ko/se/meN" is the same as "mere ko/meN/se" in terms of grammar and I find this usage absolutely despicable and I would point this out to the speaker, whether he/she likes it or not!!!

    In English, one comes across "We was/You was", "If I would have known about the party, I would have gone to it", "He don't care about me any more", "I never would of thought he'd behave like this", "I am not speaking to no body", "He's took the train", "I should have went to school"....None of these are considered correct English usage. They are used in dialogue of course but you won't find the author himself/herself using them. When this usage comes out of writers' dialogues into their actual texts, and, if accepted by the general public, it will become part of what is deemed to be grammatically correct language.

    Yes "mujh/tujh" is what I would use...Just imagine the following opening line by Faiz

    "mujh se pahlii sii muHabbat mere maHbuuB nah maaNg"...

    mere se pahlii se muHabbat mere maHbuub nah maaNg! ugh!

    or Ghalib saying..

    3ishq mere ko nahiiN, vaHshat hii sahii

    nah thaa kuchh to xudaa thaa, kuchh nah hotaa to xudaa hotaa
    Duboyaa mere ko hone ne, nah hotaa maiN to kyaa hotaa
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 23rd January 2012 at 9:59 AM.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    I would agree with QP here. Such usage of tere sounds wrong and gives the impression that the speaker might not be well educated. (shouldn't be saying this, as the last time I used a certain term (paindu) there was harsh criticism!) It sounds a little tapori style-something you would probably hear in some parts of Karachi or Mumbai or from Sanjay Dutt in Muna Bhai M.B.B.S.! (Again, don't mean to use the term tapori with a derogatory or negative connotation.)

    Some might argue that such usage represents certain sections/cultures of society. In such a context, it seems completely fine (as in Munna Bhai), but it would be awkward in a formal setting (presidential speech). Recently, a student complained against a teacher, because the teacher corrected the student's pronunciation "asked" not "aksed" and there was debate about whether this is cultural/racial discrimination or not...many said that it might be fine elsewhere, but not in a school-where the purpose is to learn grammar, language, etc. The same could be applied to the English phrases QP provides.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Thanks everyone for your comments. Personally, not having studied Urdu grammar formally, "mere ko" immediately sounds incorrect but "mere se" less so. It's good to know that the grammars outlaw both.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Quote Originally Posted by daee View Post
    Thanks everyone for your comments. Personally, not having studied Urdu grammar formally, "mere ko" immediately sounds incorrect but "mere se" less so. It's good to know that the grammars outlaw both.
    According to proper grammar the oblique form of maiN is always mujh. If you break it up it sounds a bit more ludacris: mere ko is maiN ke ko , and mere se is maiN ke se which have no understandable meaning. What noun is ke/ka connecting maiN to? There is none. So it makes no sense.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Thanks for the analysis, Tonyspeed.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    In English, one comes across "We was/You was", "If I would have known about the party, I would have gone to it", "He don't care about me any more", "I never would of thought he'd behave like this", "I am not speaking to no body", "He's took the train", "I should have went to school"....None of these are considered correct English usage. They are used in dialogue of course but you won't find the author himself/herself using them. When this usage comes out of writers' dialogues into their actual texts, and, if accepted by the general public, it will become part of what is deemed to be grammatically correct language.
    I'm afraid you're wrong there, QP: things like "we was" are not correct standard English, that's all. There are many dialects in England (the land of English), where that's perfectly fine (gramatically fine, I mean - because those dialects have that conjugation rather than "we were"). And you will find many writers writing with that language: of course since more people write in standard English, there are more "we were" people.
    Some of the other examples you have given are rather more common among non-native speakers of English (like "If I would ...", "I should have went"), and thus they are irrelevant to the present discussion.

    It is not only the Munnabhais that say "mere ko": most Hindi speakers use or encounter these constructs in their everyday life. Maybe Urdu is far too more rigid, but Hindi is certainly not, and, to reiterate my point, spoken language defines grammar, not the other way round.

    However, since the title of this thread only solicits opinions about Urdu, I defer to others' opinions, since I've no idea how much rigidly do the Urdu speakers stick to the grammar books.

    A quote from http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/so...cal-variation/ is reproduced below:
    "We should avoid the temptation to draw misguided conclusions about what is ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’ grammar."
    Read more at the link.
    Last edited by greatbear; 24th January 2012 at 3:58 PM.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    I'm afraid you're wrong there, QP: things like "we was" are not correct standard English, that's all. There are many dialects in England (the land of English), where that's perfectly fine (gramatically fine, I mean - because those dialects have that conjugation rather than "we were"). And you will find many writers writing with that language: of course since more people write in standard English, there are more "we were" people.
    Some of the other examples you have given are rather more common among non-native speakers of English (like "If I would ...", "I should have went"), and thus they are irrelevant to the present discussion.

    It is not only the Munnabhais that say "mere ko": most Hindi speakers use or encounter these constructs in their everyday life. Maybe Urdu is far too more rigid, but Hindi is certainly not, and, to reiterate my point, spoken language defines grammar, not the other way round.

    However, since the title of this thread only solicits opinions about Urdu, I defer to others' opinions, since I've no idea how much rigidly do the Urdu speakers stick to the grammar books.

    A quote from http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/so...cal-variation/ is reproduced below:
    "We should avoid the temptation to draw misguided conclusions about what is ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’ grammar."
    Read more at the link.

    I have already stated my position in the following words and I have nothing further to add.

    "When this usage comes out of writers' dialogues into their actual texts, and, if accepted by the general public, it will become part of what is deemed to be grammatically correct language."

    My view about Urdu grammar has nothing to do with rigidity. It is connected with pride in the use of a language which is more than just a means of communication. It is our heart and soul! Or, as someone much more eloquent than me once said...

    naddii kaa moR, chashmah-i-shiiriiN kaa ziir-o-bam
    chaadar shab-i-nujuum kii, shabnam kaa raxt-i-nam
    motii kii aab, gul kii mahak, maah-i-nau kaa xam
    in sab ke imtizaaj se paidaa hu'ii hai tuu
    kitne HasiiN ufaq se huvaidaa hu'ii hai tuu

    (tuu= Urdu)


    Last edited by Qureshpor; 24th January 2012 at 7:58 PM.

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    Re: Urdu: mere se

    Prescriptively, yes they are incorrect. The obliques are "mujh" and "tujh." Descriptively, well, they exist! I grew up with them and have learned where to use them (Delhi) and where not to (Lucknow).

    Quote Originally Posted by daee View Post
    Here is a thread that discusses "tere ko"

    What about other postpositions after mere, are they also incorrect? Should mujh be used instead?

    Here are some examples:

    us ne mere se poochaa, ...
    tum mere se aage kaise pohanche?
    mere meN ab taaqat nahiiN hai.

    Thanks.
    Correccions en qualsevol idioma sempre són agraïdes.

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    We have another thread that discussed maine jaanaa hai forms. But I've been noticing this form more and more often where
    mere ko replaces mujhe/ mujh ko. How widespread is this form? It is also found in Pakistan?

    I found the thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1801088


    Mod note: Thread merged with a previous one about the same topic
    Last edited by cherine; 17th December 2012 at 9:15 AM. Reason: 3 consecutive posts merged. Please use the edit function.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu - "mere ko"

    This feels like classic pidgin simplification. Eliminates the 'mujh' form so you don't have to learn it. Could easily be Bombay-originated. Similar to replacing 'kyuN/kyoN' with 'kaae ko'.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu - "mere ko"

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    I've made my point in this thread and I don't feel I can add much more to what I have already said. Perhaps the moderators could merge all the three threads.

    As for Neha, I don't know her origins but Mr. Snell's Hindi is better than hers, by far. Couple of mispronunciations..fir for phir and khaasii for khaaNsii.

    "(mujhe) sardii lag rahii hai" is not "I am getting a cold" but "I am feeling cold".

    "aap kaa peT gaR-baR hotaa hai"..should be "aap ke peT meN gaR-baR hotii hai".

    "dil kaa daurah aa gayaa"..surely "dil kaa dauraa paRaa"!

    And of course "mere ko"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hindiurdu View Post
    This feels like classic pidgin simplification. Eliminates the 'mujh' form so you don't have to learn it. Could easily be Bombay-originated. Similar to replacing 'kyuN/kyoN' with 'kaae ko'.
    As a mother toungue speaker of pidgin, it doesn't feel simplified to me at all. if you replace mujhko and mere ko with maiN, then it would be simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    I've made my point in this thread and I don't feel I can add much more to what I have already said. Perhaps the moderators could merge all the three threads.

    As for Neha, I don't know her origins but Mr. Snell's Hindi is better than hers, by far. Couple of mispronunciations..fir for phir and khaasii for khaaNsii.

    "(mujhe) sardii lag rahii hai" is not "I am getting a cold" but "I am feeling cold".

    "aap kaa peT gaR-baR hotaa hai"..should be "aap ke peT meN gaR-baR hotii hai".

    "dil kaa daurah aa gayaa"..surely "dil kaa dauraa paRaa"!

    And of course "mere ko"...
    I wouldn't say better. You can tell she didn't learn Hindi out of books as is obvious with Snell. Colloquial idioms are a marker of native speech.
    Last edited by cherine; 17th December 2012 at 9:16 AM. Reason: Posts merged.

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    Re: Hindi/Urdu - "mere ko"

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    I wouldn't say better. You can tell she didn't learn Hindi out of books as is obvious with Snell. Colloquial idioms are a marker of native speech.
    You will find that most "natives" will not be saying "mere ko" and the rest. She is hardly using colloquial idioms. But each to their own.

    Was that a "colloquial Hindi" course?
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 17th December 2012 at 8:45 AM.

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    Re: Urdu/Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post

    "aap kaa peT gaR-baR hotaa hai"..should be "aap ke peT meN gaR-baR hotii hai".

    ...
    I beg to differ on this one. The first one (peT gaRbaR honaa) sounds very familiar, and the proposed correction (peT meN gaRbaR honii) totally alien to my ears.

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    Re: Urdu/Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    May I ask who is Neha? I can't figure it out from the thread.

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    Re: Urdu/Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    May I ask who is Neha? I can't figure it out from the thread.
    She is the lady with whom Professor Rupert Snell was having a little chat on matters of health. I think the link that Tony SaaHib provided seems to have got deleted in combining the threads.

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    Re: Urdu/Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    She is the lady with whom Professor Rupert Snell was having a little chat on matters of health. I think the link that Tony SaaHib provided seems to have got deleted in combining the threads.
    Thank you, you've been very helpful in solving this tiny mystery for me. tonyspeed SaaHib, could you send the link again?

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    Re: Urdu/Hindi: mere se - mere ko

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    I beg to differ on this one. The first one (peT gaRbaR honaa) sounds very familiar, and the proposed correction (peT meN gaRbaR honii) totally alien to my ears.
    I did n't actually write "peT meN gaRbaR honii". Nevertheless, three examples of this usage (two in Urdu, one in Hindi). Whether you consider these "mustanad" or not is another matter.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/sport/2011...esday_rh.shtml

    http://www.ubqari.org/controller.php...ail&nArtId=484

    http://ranchiexpress.com/184597

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