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Thread: To happen = to fall ?

  1. #1
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    To happen = to fall ?

    I thought of the word 'uitvallen' in Dutch (fall out, literally), meaning 'to turn out'. as in : 'Het viel nog goed uit' [Things turned out well after all]. --- We can then say: 'Het viel mee/ viel tegen' [Things turned out well/ not well (not as expected)], something like, lit.: 'Things fell along [parallel with the way we expected it, I think/ I interpret]/ fell against).

    Of course that is not so strange: in Latin we have casus (case, geval in Dutch), coincidentia (toe-val in Dutch). My question: do you use something like vallen in such cases ?

    I am not so sure but
    - I think English uses to turn more often (turn out, turn awry/ wrong, ...), in some cases something like to come (outcome, e-vent).
    - In French it might be rouler (se dérouler) [I have no clue whether se passer refers to a movement]
    - In Dutch it might also be lopen, to run(alles liep goed af, things worked out well/ for the better (?))

    I suggest we focus on very common verbs referring to movement, not to the historical verbs except if they refer to some 'basic' movement as well...

  2. #2
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    In Greek:

    In the standard language, to happen is «συμβαίνω» [sim'veno] a Classical Greek verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō)--> lit. to be joined to someone, walk with/by him/her metaph. (since Classical times) come to pass, fall out, happen. Compound, prefix and preposition «σὺν» (sūn)--> with, together with (of unknown origin) + verb «βαίνω» (bænō, ['veno] in modern pronunciation), Mycenaean Greek *bamjo --> to walk, step, from PIE base *gwā-, to go, which produces the neuter noun «βῆμα» ('bēmă), Doric «βᾶμα» ('bāmă), Modern Greek «βήμα» ['vima] --> step, pace; similar concept with the Latin "coincidere".
    The thing which happens is either,
    1/ a «συμβάν» (sim'van)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «συμβάν» (sūm'bān) was the neuter participle of the 2nd aorist tense of the verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō) turned into a stranded noun with identical meaning, or,
    2/ a «γεγονός» (ʝeɣo'nos)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «γεγονός» (gĕgŏ'nŏs) was the neuter participle of the past perfect tense of the verb «γίγνομαι» ('gĭgnŏmæ)--> to come into being, turned into a stranded noun.
    Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. crooked) on me".

    PS: In the modern language «συμβάν» carries more of a negative meaning, i.e. an accident is simply a «γεγονός», a tragic accident is more like a «συμβάν».
    Coincidently my deepest condolences to your nation TK, for yesterday's tragic «συμβάν»
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  3. #3
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!

    Could you comment on the roots of the words in bold:
    Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down [my feet, /poda/ ?] on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. crooked) on me".
    Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?

  4. #4
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    «Γύρισαν» ['ʝirisan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «γυρίζω» [ʝi'rizo] lit. "to turn around" (gyros anyone? ). It's plural, because things in Greek is a neuter pl. noun.
    «Ανάποδα» [a'napoða] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Byzantine saying «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» (a'na ton 'poða) lit. "up by the foot"; it was a common medieval practice to hang criminals (thieves, killers etc) from the feet with the head downwards «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» so that people could hit/curse/spit on their faces.

    «Πήγαν» ['piɣan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «πάω» (Classical «ὑπάγω»), lit. "to go away, withdraw, retire".
    «Στραβά» [stra'va] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Classical adj. «στρεβλός, -λὴ, -λόν» (strĕ'blŏs m./strĕ'blē f./strĕ'blŏn n.)--> twisted, crooked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK
    Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?
    Actually, no, both «γεγονός» and «συμβάν» are sudden and irrevocable incidents; they happen suddenly, are rare and instantaneous. An incident that is continuous or repeated, becomes a «κατάσταση» [ka'tastasi] (fem. noun) a chronic recurrence/chronic condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK
    Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!
    It was the first thing that came to my mind, what a tragedy!
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  5. #5
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Great information, Apmoy, thanks a lot. And I understand there is indeed a difference between an ac-cide-nt and a κατάσταση...

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Finnish.

    The verb 'happen, occur, take place' is tapahtua (related to tapa, "way of doing"?) or sattua (which also means 'hurt' as in 'It hurts'). As for related words, I recognize the idea of walking/going/moving forward/being in movement:

    Kaikki kävi parhain päin. Everything turned out well. (käydä = (roughly) walk)
    Asiat kulkevat omaa rataansa. The things follow their own course. (= you cannot affect things too much, just as the Earth follows its 'path' through space with little interference; kulkea = (roughly) move, progress forward)

    Could the expressions How's it going? (Miten menee?) and The exam went well. (Koe meni hyvin.) be related, by the way? There's something similar in them, the way I see it. Happening (/result) is connected to moving. Could you use uitvallen to describe an exam?
    That which caterpillars call the end of the world, we call the butterfly. Sitä, mitä toukka kutsuu maailmanlopuksi, me kutsumme perhoseksi.

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    That's great information. Lots of movement in events in Finnish!

    Some notes:
    - to do = to happen ? There might be something like that in French: comment ça se fait qu'il y a ... ? [How does it do/ is it done ... ?] - but I am not a native speaker]
    - käydä reminds me of our uitlopen (run > turn out to...), French (se dé-)rouler
    - move: I don't see a link in Dutch
    - go/ men-/ gaan: oh, yes, they are related indeed, or so I think. We have quite the same expressions, and I can recognize them in other IE languages as well

  8. #8
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    I am afraid (2) is not what I meant. What I meant is: can you use a verb of movement to describe the event of happening, or the outcome ? I suppose not though.

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Hebrew: (not common) נפל דבר Nafal davar means "Something has happened". Nafal means "fell".

  11. #11
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    That 's very interesting, thanks !

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.
    I see! this should be 1.)May pangyayari and 2.)May kaganapan (they can be used to describe the events taking place)
    deKamatodeNah TeKatenggesan Ketam

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    So you can use 'kaganapan' for fruit falling from trees then as well ?

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Hungarian:

    megesik - it happens
    meg - perfective prefix
    esik - he/she/it falls

    előfordul - it happens, occurs
    elő - prefix (cca. "fore", "ahead")
    fordul- he/she/it turns

    (the traslations are approximative)

    P.S. The verb menni (to go) can be used in a similar way like in Finnish (post #6), but it expresses rather the way how things happen and not the fact that they happen.
    Last edited by francisgranada; 20th March 2012 at 3:45 PM. Reason: Added P.S.

  15. #15
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Very interesting, thanks: so I recognize the use of falling and turning, as in Dutch. Great to discover.

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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Arabic also has such a verb. وقع waqa3a, which means either "to fall" or "to happen"
    If you say وقع الشيء, it can mean "something fell" (as in literally fell down) or "something happened".


  17. #17
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?

  18. #18
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?

  19. #19
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mataripis View Post
    In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.
    I got some extra information from a lady I met:
    YARI can only mean "happen"when the prefix "pang" is added, as in PANGYAYARI (with the extra "ya" turning the extra verb into a noun:

    yari: caused by or made by
    pangyayari : event (mga pangyayari : events)
    nangyari: has happened
    "
    That seems to imply that events in Tagalog do not 'fall', but they might 'be generated' (as in French: ça se produit ???), so it seems...

  20. #20
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    Re: To happen = to fall ?

    Its not unfamiliar in hebrew for come out[=outcome]:
    כך יצא cach yatza - so it has turned out[= it happened to be so; the outcome turned to be thus].
    יצא is used for 'going out/to (of something/place)'
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

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