So what about heros Devet Jugovića from about 1389.? They were not peasants... We are not sure if that was their surname, but it might have been...they were called like that .....(Jugovići - Vojin, Miljko, Marko, Ljubodrag, Radmilo, Boško, Stojan, Veselin and my favorite Damjan)
(And 200 years is not relatively recently..... But women's independence is.)
Last edited by Brainiac; 14th August 2012 at 7:36 PM.
Не верь, не бойся, не проси.
Google search for Pusićeva (Vesna Pusić is a Croatian minister) gives only one result from Croatia on the first three pages -- most are from Serbia or even Slovenia. On a less related note, it's funny how one of these results from Serbia refers to her as "ministar" and how Croatian insists that a female minister be ministrica while not requiring a special form for bare female surnames.
"Čiji/čija si ti?" from old people addressing children or teenagers. The way I understand it, -ić is primarily a suffix for deriving masculine diminutive nouns, so Popović originally meant "priest's (little) boy" (even though we obviously don't understand it as such any more). Note that the Russian equivalent of this suffix, -ič, is used for deriving men's patronymics (the names that everybody gets according to their father's given name, as demonstrated earlier in this thread by se16teddy), while the suffix for women is -na.
Last edited by Anicetus; 14th August 2012 at 8:51 PM.
Yes, I've heard for "Čiji/Čijia si ti?". (Matija Bećković - Čiji si ti, mali?).
But, as you said, that's for kids. And when you are a kid, too young, dete, and you "belong" to someone, the sex somehow loses its importance, and a child represents his/her parents (say father).
- ić is deminative, he is "little father", little Jug Bogdan (example above) (in my region it's used to draw similarities between child and his grandparents), so a child doesn't belong to a parent, I'd say a child (of either sex) is a copy of a parent. (At least to me.)
Like when you call a kitten mačkić (the sex of a kitten seems unimportant).
And again in my opinion, I imagine -ić first in plural (Popovići), (like pilići, ptičići... ), showing a family, a group, then I guess it has gained singular...hm hm....
(By the way, in so-called patriarchal families, women were "secret bosses" )
Не верь, не бойся, не проси.
Etymologically, the female surnames are mostly genitives from the proper ("masculine") surnames, that's why Kuznetsova, i.e. [the wife] of Kuznetsov. In case of Pushkin (as far as I know) the female version in Russian is Pushkina (not *Pushkinova).
As the ending -ova is relatively frequent, so in Czech and Slovak it's spontaneously interpreted as -ová, i.e. the feminine form of the adjectives in -ový (-ovoj/-ovyj in Russian). The result is that in Czech/Slovak we have Kuzněcovová/Kuznecovová, Puškinová, Newtonová, Shakespearová, Sarkozyová, Andrássyová, and even Suzi Quatroová etc ...
So the ending -ová has become a "general solution", except of the surnames that are a priori adjectives. Thus e.g. the wife/daughter of Nový is Nová (and not *Novýová ).
Of course, this system may also lead to an eventual "deformation" of the proper/original surname. For example, Mrs./Miss Pólová can be the wife/daughter of Mr. Pól, Póla or Pólo ...
Last edited by francisgranada; 14th August 2012 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Precision
It was an indirect way of checking if these forms act like nouns or adjectives when referring to female humans.
I've just read this piece of news in Blic:
Klintonova u bolnici, otkriven krvni ugrušak nakon potresa mozga
"Mrs Clinton" becomes "Klintonova" in Serbocroatian? I knew this rule in Russian, for instance, but in Serbian too?
By the way, Happy New Year!
Go to the previous page and start reading from post #11.
Although I have to say this is the first time I see the "possessivisation rule" applied to a foreign female surname (even in Blic they don't usually do it).
Still if the other various grammatical rules (cases etc) that apply to a domestic surname, apply also to a foreign, I can't see the reason why this shouldn't...
Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 6:37 PM.
Btw Francisgranada what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)
By tradition, automatically adding -ová, so Nagyová, Meszárošová (Mészárosová), Pálffyová, Szabóová ...also Bauerová, Papadopoulosová etc. But, after turbulent discussions, a new law was approved in the parliament some years ago that admits the omission of -ová in surnames if officially demanded (I don't know the details). So today we can see, also in TV, names like Andrea Belányi, Anna Nagy ... but also Edit Bauer, Sofia Papadopoulos etc.Btw Francisgranada what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)
Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 6:39 PM.
I wanted to point out that in Czech and Slovak the ending -ová is now simply added to the surname, even if it is etimologically already in genitive case. That's why Kuznecovová and Puškinová in Slovak. In other words, -ová behaves today as an adjective ending, instead of being a feminine possessive -ova.
P.S. How do you say e.g. Jekaterina Puškinová or Oľga Kuznecovová in Serbian (the wives of some Pushkin and Kuznetsov)?
Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Precision
The possessive and adjectival endings have also different declension.
Czech surnames are of three models:
1) male: noun × female: adjective formed with -ová (model Novák × Nováková)
2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)
First two models are inflective and the third one is inflexible. Foreign surnames rarely suits the last two patterns. Only some Slavic adjectival surnames suits the second model. On the other hand, practically any foreign surname suits some masculine declension model and thus model one is pretty universal.
And since you mentioned surnames, is it possible to guess if someone is Czech or Slovak just by his surname (I'm talking about, "bare" words, because I know that diacritics differ between the two languages)? (to the moderators sorry - I know this is somewhat off-topic, hope you will let it pass)
Last edited by Tassos; 3rd January 2013 at 7:06 PM.
Ukrainian rules regarding surnames can be somewhat complicated.
If the surname is a straightforward adjectival form (-ський), then there is usually a feminine form (-ська). This is also supposed to be true for non-Ukrainian Slavic surnames, which are in most cases Ukrainianised if this can be done (e.g., Nový becomes Новий; Nová becomes Нова). This does not always happen in practice, however. I have seen Ukrainian official documents issued to foreigners with Ukrainian or Slavic names in which the surname was simply transliterated back into Ukrainian. For example, І. Біла emigrated from Ukraine to Canada, became a Canadian citizen with the surname Bilyy, returned to Ukraine several years later to work, and was issued a work permit by the Ukrainian government under the surname Билйй!
If the surname derives from a possessive adjectival form (-ів, -ов, -ин, і.т.д.), there may be a feminine form or there may not. Generally speaking, in Central and Eastern Ukraine there will usually be a feminine form, whereas in Western Ukraine it is just as likely that there will not. Hence the wife, daughter, or sister of Панчишин may be Панчишина or may also be Панчишин. The wife, daughter, or sister of Панків may be Панків, Панкова, or even Панківа.
Other surnames do not have a feminine form (e.g., Шевчук, Кравець, Міненко, Лакуста, etc.). These surnames decline as normal Ukrainian nouns when referring to a man, but do not decline when referring to a woman. In some parts of rural Ukraine and in the Ukrainian communities in North America it is still possible to hear feminine forms of some of these surnames (Шевчучка, Кравчиха, Міненкова, Лакустиха), but this is an archaic form that is now only oral and is almost never recorded in documents.
Foreign surnames are never feminised. Foreign surnames follow regular Ukrainian surname declention rules. That is, foreign surnames of men for the most part decline as Ukrainian nouns, but foreign surnames of women do not, unless they are the feminine forms of Slavic adjectival-type words. Hence, Bill Clinton (Клінтон, -а, -ові (-у), -а, -ом, -і (-у), -е) declines, but Hillary Clinton does not. However, both Putin and Putina decline.
One last completely useless piece of trivia is that because of Belarusan orthography rules, Ukrainian surnames ending in -енко are written there as -энка. When these are rendered back into Ukrainian, they remain in their Belarusan form as -енка and are declined for men as feminine nouns, apparently to the annoyance of the President of Belarus when he goes to Ukraine to visit family.
For those of us not familiar with Czech, can you give us some examples of famous people from the Czech Republic whose surnames follow models (2) or (3) (just to get an idea)?Czech:2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
Smutný × Smutná
Veselý × Veselá
Tachecí × Tachecí
Kočí × Kočí (substantivised adjective or vice versa )
Krejčí × Krejčí (substantivised adjective or vice versa )
Rýdzi × Rýdza
Sliacky × Sliacka
Starší × Staršia
Slovinský × Slovinská
Czech:3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)
Paulů × Paulů
Petrů × Petrů
Janů × Janů
Jirků × Jirků
Jakubove × Jakubove
Jakubovie × Jakubovie
Šovdoje × Šovdoje or Šovdojeová
Krnáče × Krnáče or Krnáčeová
Jurových × Jurových or Jurovýchová
Jankech × Jankechová or Jankech
Balažovjech × Balažovjechová or Balažovjech
Minaroviech × Minaroviechová or Minaroviech
Older .sk link in English: http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/28570/2/