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Thread: All Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

  1. #21
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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
    I don't know if this is a relatively recent invention, grammatically, because the majority of Serbian surnames ends in -, no female (nor male) version, only one version for both sexes. [/COLOR][/FONT]
    As far as I know, in Serbia proper stable surnames were introduced only by a Prince Miloš's decree from 1820s, which required all citizens (well, peasants, actually ) to acquire a surname ending in -ić, and that it's inherited from father to children; the customs were fairly chaotic before that. That is why in Central Serbia we have relatively uniform suffix -ić today. In other areas (Austria-Hungary), surnames were introduced at different times, and by different principles, but I'd guess that, at least among peasantry, it wasn't earlier than the 19th century.

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    So what about heros Devet Jugovića from about 1389.? They were not peasants... We are not sure if that was their surname, but it might have been...they were called like that .....(Jugovići - Vojin, Miljko, Marko, Ljubodrag, Radmilo, Boško, Stojan, Veselin and my favorite Damjan)

    (And 200 years is not relatively recently..... But women's independence is.)
    Last edited by Brainiac; 14th August 2012 at 7:36 PM.
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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Duya View Post
    On the contrary, "possessivization" of bare female surnames is prescribed (but admittedly, not always followed) in Serbian standard:
    http://www.rastko.rs/filologija/odbor/odluka030.html
    Very well, I wasn't aware of that. My impression is that isn't used very often in headlines in Croatia. Indeed, Google search for Pusićeva (Vesna Pusić is a Croatian minister) gives only one result from Croatia on the first three pages -- most are from Serbia or even Slovenia. On a less related note, it's funny how one of these results from Serbia refers to her as "ministar" and how Croatian insists that a female minister be ministrica while not requiring a special form for bare female surnames.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    (is that grammatically correct, or it must be something like Hej, Spanićeva, dođi ovamo! or even Hej, Spanićevo, dođi ovamo!)
    As Duya and Brainiac told you, it can't be hej, Spanićevo. Remember that adjectives don't have a special vocative form.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duya View Post
    First, because they do not have a declension to fit in. They ought to have a feminine declension, but they do not have a feminine form (unless they happen to have, like Jelača or Beara) so there's no suitable suffix.
    What I find kind of silly is that even when the surname is an adjective (such surnames are actually rather rare, but they do exist), with the suffix -ski or -ov for example, women get the masculine form.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
    Ah! Well, true, but I would rather treat this like: it's the same surname for all the members of the family, they are one team , and they are equal. I don't know if this is a relatively recent invention, grammatically, because the majority of Serbian surnames ends in -, no female (nor male) version, only one version for both sexes. To me, it's not a matter of "possessing" a woman (I think only men can think of this ), the surname meant what (kind of) family you come from, which usually meant - what your patriline was. But, for instance, Popovići meant a line of descent from a male ancestor, a priest, to a descendant (of either sex). Descendants seemed to be equalized, "children/descendant of their forefather"), and marked by their role in the society.
    Of course we don't perceive surnames as indicating possession today, but in the old-fashioned patriarchal society, the father -- the "patriarch"-- pretty much was the master, owner, of his family. You've probably heard the phrase "Čiji/čija si ti?" from old people addressing children or teenagers. The way I understand it, -ić is primarily a suffix for deriving masculine diminutive nouns, so Popović originally meant "priest's (little) boy" (even though we obviously don't understand it as such any more). Note that the Russian equivalent of this suffix, -ič, is used for deriving men's patronymics (the names that everybody gets according to their father's given name, as demonstrated earlier in this thread by se16teddy), while the suffix for women is -na.
    Last edited by Anicetus; 14th August 2012 at 8:51 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Yes, I've heard for "Čiji/Čijia si ti?". (Matija Bećković - Čiji si ti, mali?).
    But, as you said, that's for kids. And when you are a kid, too young, dete, and you "belong" to someone, the sex somehow loses its importance, and a child represents his/her parents (say father).
    - is deminative, he is "little father", little Jug Bogdan (example above) (in my region it's used to draw similarities between child and his grandparents), so a child doesn't belong to a parent, I'd say a child (of either sex) is a copy of a parent. (At least to me.)
    Like when you call a kitten mačkić (the sex of a kitten seems unimportant).
    And again in my opinion, I imagine -ić first in plural (Popovići), (like pilići, ptičići... ), showing a family, a group, then I guess it has gained singular...hm hm....

    (By the way, in so-called patriarchal families, women were "secret bosses" )
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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Etymologically, the female surnames are mostly genitives from the proper ("masculine") surnames, that's why Kuznetsova, i.e. [the wife] of Kuznetsov. In case of Pushkin (as far as I know) the female version in Russian is Pushkina (not *Pushkinova).

    As the ending -ova is relatively frequent, so in Czech and Slovak it's spontaneously interpreted as -ová, i.e. the feminine form of the adjectives in -ový (-ovoj/-ovyj in Russian). The result is that in Czech/Slovak we have Kuzněcovová/Kuznecovová, Puškinová, Newtonová, Shakespearová, Sarkozyová, Andrássyová, and even Suzi Quatroová etc ...

    So the ending -ová has become a "general solution", except of the surnames that are a priori adjectives. Thus e.g. the wife/daughter of Nový is Nová (and not *Novýová ).

    Of course, this system may also lead to an eventual "deformation" of the proper/original surname. For example, Mrs./Miss Pólová can be the wife/daughter of Mr. Pól, Póla or Pólo ...
    Last edited by francisgranada; 14th August 2012 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Precision

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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anicetus View Post
    Very well, I wasn't aware of that. My impression is that isn't used very often in headlines in Croatia. Indeed, Google search for Pusićeva (Vesna Pusić is a Croatian minister) gives only one result from Croatia on the first three pages -- most are from Serbia or even Slovenia.
    I was going to say that. Most of the time I read Jurarnji List (I think it has something to do with the colors, or the copious amounts of foto-reportages featuring attractive females ) and I never noticed such a thing. On the occasion of the Olympics, I switched to Blic and then I spotted it and asked you about it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anicetus View Post
    As Duya and Brainiac told you, it can't be hej, Spanićevo. Remember that adjectives don't have a special vocative form.
    Of course I know that, I mean, please....
    It was an indirect way of checking if these forms act like nouns or adjectives when referring to female humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    As the ending -ova is relatively frequent, so in Czech and Slovak it's spontaneously interpreted as -ová, i.e. the feminine form of the adjectives in -ový (-ovoj/-ovyj in Russian). The result is that in Czech/Slovak we have Kuzněcovová/Kuznecovová, Puškinová, Newtonová, Shakespearová, Sarkozyová, Andrássyová, and even Suzi Quatroová etc ...
    I was always wandering about the á at the end. Does it mean that accent of the word actually shifts to the final syllable or something else? I mean is it Dominika Cibulková as most western sportscasters call her (with the accent on the u) or Dominika Cibulková (with the accent on the a)?

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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    I was always wandering about the á at the end. Does it mean that accent of the word actually shifts to the final syllable or something else? I mean is it Dominika Cibulková as most western sportscasters call her (with the accent on the u) or Dominika Cibulková (with the accent on the a)?
    In Czech and Slovak the stress is always on the first syllable, and the acute accent on top represents a long vowel. So it should be Cibulková.

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    BCS: feminine surnames

    Dear foreros:

    I've just read this piece of news in Blic:
    Klintonova u bolnici, otkriven krvni ugrušak nakon potresa mozga

    "Mrs Clinton" becomes "Klintonova" in Serbocroatian? I knew this rule in Russian, for instance, but in Serbian too?

    By the way, Happy New Year!

  9. #29
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    Re: All Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Go to the previous page and start reading from post #11.
    Although I have to say this is the first time I see the "possessivisation rule" applied to a foreign female surname (even in Blic they don't usually do it).
    Still if the other various grammatical rules (cases etc) that apply to a domestic surname, apply also to a foreign, I can't see the reason why this shouldn't...

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    Re: All Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    Go to the previous page and start reading from post #11.
    Although I have to say this is the first time I see the "possessivisation rule" applied to a foreign female surname (even in Blic they don't usually do it).
    Still if the other various grammatical rules (cases etc) that apply to a domestic surname, apply also to a foreign, I can't see the reason why this shouldn't...
    Tassos, I've read all the posts, thanks. In one of them there was the example of "Del Ponteova": so, it seems that rule applies to all surnames... (Moskourieva je bila pjevaćica, Jolie-eva i Anistonova su glumice, Thatchereva je bila ministerica, Merkeleva nije vrlo popularna u Grčkoj...funny!).

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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    ... I was always wandering about the á at the end. Does it mean that accent of the word actually shifts to the final syllable or something else? I mean is it Dominika Cibulková as most western sportscasters call her (with the accent on the u) or Dominika Cibulková (with the accent on the a)?
    No, the accent (stress) is alway on the first syllable of the word. The á representns a long vowel. In this case, etymologically it is a continuation of a former Slavic *aja, where this *ja was a (today non existing) pronoun in function of a definite article when added to the end of adjectives.
    Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 6:37 PM.

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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    No, the accent (stress) is alway on the first syllable of the word. The á representns a long vowel. In this case, etymologically it is a continuation of a former *aja, where this *ja was a (today non existing) pronoun in function of a definite article when added to the end of adjectives.
    That means that Western sportscasters pronounce all female Czech and Slovak surnames incorrectly...
    Btw Francisgranada what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)

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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    That means that Western sportscasters pronounce all female Czech and Slovak surnames incorrectly...
    Practically yes . But let's pardon them as it's impossible to know the correct pronounciation of all the languages on earth ...

    Btw Francisgranada what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)
    By tradition, automatically adding -ová, so Nagyová, Meszárošová (Mészárosová), Pálffyová, Szabóová ...also Bauerová, Papadopoulosová etc. But, after turbulent discussions, a new law was approved in the parliament some years ago that admits the omission of -ová in surnames if officially demanded (I don't know the details). So today we can see, also in TV, names like Andrea Belányi, Anna Nagy ... but also Edit Bauer, Sofia Papadopoulos etc.
    Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 6:39 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: BCMS - Use of possessive adjectives (fenale surnames)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    That means that Western sportscasters pronounce all female Czech and Slovak surnames incorrectly...
    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    Practically yes . But let's pardon them as it's impossible to know the correct pronounciation of all the languages on earth ...
    Although I've never been demuring to that, I wouldn't be so kind to many of them in this respect, but let's take it rather as a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    what about the Hungarian female surnames in Slovakia, do they follow the Slovak or the Hungarian naming rules? (for example how is the wife/daughter of Ladislav Nagy or Andrej Meszároš called?)
    Out of the curiosity - there are certainly more ladies without the female suffix in Slovakia than in Czech Republic. Not only because of the ten percent Hungarian minority, but also because some Slovaks have stronger feeling not to modify foreign sounded or looking names, I think.

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    Etymologically, the female surnames are mostly genitives from the proper ("masculine") surnames, that's why Kuznetsova, i.e. [the wife] of Kuznetsov. In case of Pushkin (as far as I know) the female version in Russian is Pushkina (not *Pushkinova).
    Why do you think so? Kuznetsov and Pushkin are already possessive adjectives, so why couldn't Kuznetsova and Pushkina simply be their feminine forms? They are declined like they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miliu View Post
    Tassos, I've read all the posts, thanks. In one of them there was the example of "Del Ponteova": so, it seems that rule applies to all surnames... (Moskourieva je bila pjevaćica, Jolie-eva i Anistonova su glumice, Thatchereva je bila ministerica, Merkeleva nije vrlo popularna u Grčkoj...funny!).
    If you don't mind some small corrections, it's Mouskourijeva and Joliejeva -- j is inserted between a letter representing /i/ and a, e, i or u; hyphens are only used when inflecting acronyms. Furthermore, Thatcherova and Merkelova -- -ev is normally used for palatal-ending stems; r does sometimes behave as if it were a palatal (carev, for example), but not in foreign names or recent borrowing (that all happens because r actually used to be palatal a long time ago). Of course, those names were according to Croatian and Bosnian orthography, Serbian would simply spell them phonetically: Muskurijeva, Džolijeva, Tačerova. And also, it's pjevačica and ministrica.

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by Anicetus View Post
    Why do you think so? Kuznetsov and Pushkin are already possessive adjectives, so why couldn't Kuznetsova and Pushkina simply be their feminine forms? They are declined like they are.
    Because they are, not explicitely feminine but possessive as you have said correctly. The so called feminine form of the surnames in -ová historically derives from the possessive: Kováčova žena (the wife of Smith, Smith's wife) and also žena Puškina or Puškinova žena (Pushkin's wife, wife of Pushkin) etc...

    I wanted to point out that in Czech and Slovak the ending -ová is now simply added to the surname, even if it is etimologically already in genitive case. That's why Kuznecovová and Puškinová in Slovak. In other words, -ová behaves today as an adjective ending, instead of being a feminine possessive -ova.

    P.S. How do you say e.g. Jekaterina Puškinová or Oľga Kuznecovová in Serbian (the wives of some Pushkin and Kuznetsov)?
    Last edited by francisgranada; 2nd January 2013 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Precision

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    That's why Kuznecovová and Puškinová in Slovak. In other words, -ová behaves today as an adjective ending, instead of being a feminine possessive -ova.
    Czech ending -ová, albeit of genitival origin like the possessive ending -ova, was never possessive. It's pure adjectival ending alike in kovová (metallic, of metal), ledová (icy, of ice), hladová (hungry)...
    The possessive and adjectival endings have also different declension.

    Czech surnames are of three models:

    1) male: noun × female: adjective formed with -ová (model Novák × Nováková)
    2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
    3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)

    First two models are inflective and the third one is inflexible. Foreign surnames rarely suits the last two patterns. Only some Slavic adjectival surnames suits the second model. On the other hand, practically any foreign surname suits some masculine declension model and thus model one is pretty universal.

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by werrr View Post
    2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
    3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)
    Very interesting indeed... For those of us not familiar with Czech, can you give us some examples of famous people from the Czech Republic whose surnames follow models (2) or (3) (just to get an idea)?

    And since you mentioned surnames, is it possible to guess if someone is Czech or Slovak just by his surname (I'm talking about, "bare" words, because I know that diacritics differ between the two languages)? (to the moderators sorry - I know this is somewhat off-topic, hope you will let it pass)
    Last edited by Tassos; 3rd January 2013 at 7:06 PM.

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    Re: All Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    Quote Originally Posted by venenum View Post
    Hi there!

    Jana's answer to a question concerning a Chech surname made me wonder:



    In Croatian, we don't distinguish between male and female surnames, meaning that a brother and a sister have exactly the same surname - concerning form and pronunciation.
    Jana's explanation triggered a question: How does this really function? Do other Slavic languages distinguish between male and female forms of surnames - meaning that brother and sister would have different forms of the same surname?

    Thanks in advance!

    Poison

    Ukrainian rules regarding surnames can be somewhat complicated.

    If the surname is a straightforward adjectival form (-ський), then there is usually a feminine form (-ська). This is also supposed to be true for non-Ukrainian Slavic surnames, which are in most cases Ukrainianised if this can be done (e.g., Nový becomes Новий; Nová becomes Нова). This does not always happen in practice, however. I have seen Ukrainian official documents issued to foreigners with Ukrainian or Slavic names in which the surname was simply transliterated back into Ukrainian. For example, І. Біла emigrated from Ukraine to Canada, became a Canadian citizen with the surname Bilyy, returned to Ukraine several years later to work, and was issued a work permit by the Ukrainian government under the surname Билйй!

    If the surname derives from a possessive adjectival form (-ів, -ов, -ин, і.т.д.), there may be a feminine form or there may not. Generally speaking, in Central and Eastern Ukraine there will usually be a feminine form, whereas in Western Ukraine it is just as likely that there will not. Hence the wife, daughter, or sister of Панчишин may be Панчишина or may also be Панчишин. The wife, daughter, or sister of Панків may be Панків, Панкова, or even Панківа.

    Other surnames do not have a feminine form (e.g., Шевчук, Кравець, Міненко, Лакуста, etc.). These surnames decline as normal Ukrainian nouns when referring to a man, but do not decline when referring to a woman. In some parts of rural Ukraine and in the Ukrainian communities in North America it is still possible to hear feminine forms of some of these surnames (Шевчучка, Кравчиха, Міненкова, Лакустиха), but this is an archaic form that is now only oral and is almost never recorded in documents.

    Foreign surnames are never feminised. Foreign surnames follow regular Ukrainian surname declention rules. That is, foreign surnames of men for the most part decline as Ukrainian nouns, but foreign surnames of women do not, unless they are the feminine forms of Slavic adjectival-type words. Hence, Bill Clinton (Клінтон, -а, -ові (-у), -а, -ом, -і (-у), -е) declines, but Hillary Clinton does not. However, both Putin and Putina decline.

    One last completely useless piece of trivia is that because of Belarusan orthography rules, Ukrainian surnames ending in -енко are written there as -энка. When these are rendered back into Ukrainian, they remain in their Belarusan form as -енка and are declined for men as feminine nouns, apparently to the annoyance of the President of Belarus when he goes to Ukraine to visit family.

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    Re: Slavic languages: male vs. female surnames

    For those of us not familiar with Czech, can you give us some examples of famous people from the Czech Republic whose surnames follow models (2) or (3) (just to get an idea)?
    2) male: adjective × female: adjective (model Nový × Nová)
    Czech:

    Smutný × Smutná
    Veselý × Veselá
    Tachecí × Tachecí
    Kočí × Kočí (substantivised adjective or vice versa )
    Krejčí × Krejčí (substantivised adjective or vice versa )

    Slovak:

    Rýdzi × Rýdza
    Sliacky × Sliacka
    Starší × Staršia
    Slovinský × Slovinská

    3) male: genitive × female: genitive (model Martinů × Martinů)
    Czech:

    Paulů × Paulů
    Petrů × Petrů
    Janů × Janů
    Jirků × Jirků

    Slovak:

    Jakubove × Jakubove
    Jakubovie × Jakubovie
    Šovdoje × Šovdoje or Šovdojeová
    Krnáče × Krnáče or Krnáčeová
    Jurových × Jurových or Jurovýchová
    Jankech × Jankechová or Jankech
    Balažovjech × Balažovjechová or Balažovjech
    Minaroviech × Minaroviechová or Minaroviech

    Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...k&client=opera

    Older .sk link in English: http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/28570/2/

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