Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 102

Thread: Urdu, Hindi: schwa deletion

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    I think we have seen a case of ''schwa insertion''! By the way, I've never come across *kaaravaan/kaaravaaN before but maybe I didn't pay heed. However when I'm thinking that I'm familiar with this word mostly from the poetry, it seems this has always been kaarvaaN/kaarvaan, because people who recite poetry try to pronounce words correctly.

    Now the discussion has taken such a stance that I'm not sure if it be deemed relevant, but even in Persian, which is scrupulous regarding the middle zabars, as stated before somewhere in the thread, this word is pronounced kaarvaan, and I never heard it pronounced with a zabar on re. Even good poets don't recite it this way when presenting their pieces in a slow tempo.
    marrish SaaHib, without fully grasping the rules of prosody, I am aware of the insertion of an extra "a" in Urdu/Persian poetry. I remember reading about this in a book on prosody where this vowel was described as a "niim fatHah" (half a zabar/half schwa). I hope this helps.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Well, in reference to the word kaarvaaN my indication is that not a half zabar is inserted there. In the link that UM saahab sent, if you have a look at the English translation of this word, ''carvan'' is given, following probably the correct and most common pronunciation at place.

    Later on this word got to be written ''caravan'' in English and it seems the ''a'' following ''r'' serves the English phonology because ''carvan'' would be read in approximation like ''kaa-vən''.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    QP SaaHib, could you please finish your sentence?
    I find this quite strange that you hear and pronounce this word as "mu3alliqah"!!I was under the impression that (according to you) the 3ain pronunciation di
    Apologies UM and marrish SaaHibaan. I must have been rudely interrupted by someone.

    I find this quite strange that you hear and pronounce this word as "mu3alliqah"!!I was under the impression that (according to you) the 3ain pronunciation did not exist. And what is the "h" doing at the end? Do you (UM SaaHib) pronounce this?

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Well, in reference to the word kaarvaaN my indication is that not a half zabar is inserted there. In the link that UM saahab sent, if you have a look at the English translation of this word, ''carvan'' is given, following probably the correct and most common pronunciation at place.

    Later on this word got to be written ''caravan'' in English and it seems the ''a'' following ''r'' serves the English phonology because ''carvan'' would be read in approximation like ''kaa-vən''.
    marrish SaaHib, you may have missed my point. The word, as far as Urdu is concerned, is indeed "kaarvaan/N" but in poetry there is this concept of "niim fatHah". When the "taqtii3" of a misra3 is carried out, these extra vowels provide the correct "vazn" of the lines. That's all that I meant to say.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    United States
    Native language
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Posts
    1,053

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    Apologies UM and marrish SaaHibaan. I must have been rudely interrupted by someone.

    I find this quite strange that you hear and pronounce this word as "mu3alliqah"!!I was under the impression that (according to you) the 3ain pronunciation did not exist. And what is the "h" doing at the end? Do you (UM SaaHib) pronounce this?
    I did not write mu3alliqah, but muta3alliqah. I guessed I just spelled it rather than pronounce it. You are right, the pronunciation would be muta'alliqa.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    I did not write mu3alliqah, but muta3alliqah. I guessed I just spelled it rather than pronounce it. You are right, the pronunciation would be muta'alliqa.
    Thank you UM SaaHib for the correction. Of course we all try to write in the forum as the language is written and not necessarily as it is pronounced. I mentioned the word "naazniin/naazaniin" in another post. Here is where it all started.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2200269

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    United States
    Native language
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Posts
    1,053

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    This post inspired by the thread "Urdu-Punjabi-Hindi: Ramzaan Kariim!"

    Question for QP saahab: Curious to see your consistent use of Ramzaan (vs Ramazaan). Is this a selective case of schwa deletion, unlike the maulavii/maulvii scenario? I ask because indeed from a usage perspective both Ramzaan and Ramazaan are found in Urdu usage. People who would typically make the additional effort to say maulavii, I would have guessed them to say Ramazaan.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    This post inspired by the thread "Urdu-Punjabi-Hindi: Ramzaan Kariim!"

    Question for QP saahab: Curious to see your consistent use of Ramzaan (vs Ramazaan). Is this a selective case of schwa deletion, unlike the maulavii/maulvii scenario? I ask because indeed from a usage perspective both Ramzaan and Ramazaan are found in Urdu usage. People who would typically make the additional effort to say maulavii, I would have guessed them to say Ramazaan.
    Good question UM SaaHib. My personal experience of this word amongst Urdu speakers' speech and writing is "Ramzaan" although I must confess, I have uttered and written Ramazaan too.

    Here is a shi3r from Iqbal's javaab-i-shikvah. Perhaps Faylasoof SaaHib might be able to tell us how the poet has used it here.

    tab3-i-aazaad pih qaid-i-RamzaaN bhaarii hai
    tumhiiN kah do yahii aa'iin-i-vafaa-daarii hai

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Plato's Republic
    Native language
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Posts
    5,570

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post


    Originally Posted by UrduMedium
    This post inspired by the thread "Urdu-Punjabi-Hindi: Ramzaan Kariim!"

    Question for QP saahab: Curious to see your consistent use of Ramzaan (vs Ramazaan). Is this a selective case of schwa deletion, unlike the maulavii/maulvii scenario? I ask because indeed from a usage perspective both Ramzaan and Ramazaan are found in Urdu usage. People who would typically make the additional effort to say maulavii, I would have guessed them to say Ramazaan.
    Good question UM SaaHib. My personal experience of this word amongst Urdu speakers' speech and writing is "Ramzaan" although I must confess, I have uttered and written Ramazaan too.

    Here is a shi3r from Iqbal's javaab-i-shikvah. Perhaps Faylasoof SaaHib might be able to tell us how the poet has used it here.

    tab3-i-aazaad pih qaid-i-RamzaaN bhaarii hai
    tumhiiN kah do yahii aa'iin-i-vafaa-daarii hai
    I must agree with you QP SaaHib that 'ramzaan' is very common amongst Urduphones of nearly all shades but some of us do not drop the middle 'a'. So for us too it is 'ramazaan'! As for 3allamah SaaHib's she3r, I would read it with the middle 'a', i.e. ‘ramazaan’. How he himself would have pronounced it is anybody's guess though judging by the frequency of 'ramzaan' over 'ramazaan', which I believe has been around a long time, one would guess that he used the former rather than the latter form. The former is certainly very common now and perhaps was already so in his times – may be even earlier! But I can't be sure!
    Utlub al-‘ilm min al-mahd ilal-laHd Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave (Ali ibn Abi Talib)

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    United States
    Native language
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Posts
    1,053

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    Good question UM SaaHib. My personal experience of this word amongst Urdu speakers' speech and writing is "Ramzaan" although I must confess, I have uttered and written Ramazaan too.

    Here is a shi3r from Iqbal's javaab-i-shikvah. Perhaps Faylasoof SaaHib might be able to tell us how the poet has used it here.

    tab3-i-aazaad pih qaid-i-RamzaaN bhaarii hai
    tumhiiN kah do yahii aa'iin-i-vafaa-daarii hai
    From my reading of the meter this is clearly ramazaaN. Curious to hear other opinions.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    From my reading of the meter this is clearly ramazaaN. Curious to hear other opinions.
    You may well be right. I did n't quote the couplet to "prove" that the word was "Ramzaan". It was merely a query.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Plato's Republic
    Native language
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Posts
    5,570

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    From my reading of the meter this is clearly ramazaaN. Curious to hear other opinions.
    UM SaaHib, I'm not as confident as you as regards using the meter to prove that it is 'ramazaan' and not 'ramzaan'. Both can fit! Just that we use 'ramazaan' and find it better though schwa deletion is all too common now!
    Utlub al-‘ilm min al-mahd ilal-laHd Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave (Ali ibn Abi Talib)

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Native language
    JA- English & Creole
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    We have words like khabar and aafat which contain a central schwa. Now if we make these plural do we pronounce them as
    khab-reN and aaf-teN or khabareN and aafateN? Does aafateN sound more right than khabareN or are both akward in your experience?

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    We have words like khabar and aafat which contain a central schwa. Now if we make these plural do we pronounce them as khab-reN and aaf-teN or khabareN and aafateN? Does aafateN sound more right than khabareN or are both akward in your experience?
    Answering from the Urdu point of view, the words are xabar and aafat, which in both cases contain a schwa sound in the last syllable, so it is not central as far as my undestanding can reach. When plurals are needed, we get xa-ba-reN and aa-fa-teN. In the case of these, we deal with a medial schwa indeed. Replying to the second question, both sound just perfect and no-one seems more right than the other. I don't think they sound awkward in any way; *aafteN does and xabreN can be heard in speedy speech.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    Does aafateN sound more right than khabareN or are both akward in your experience?
    The usual pronunciations are aafateN and khabreN.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    United States
    Native language
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Posts
    1,053

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    We have words like khabar and aafat which contain a central schwa. Now if we make these plural do we pronounce them as
    khab-reN and aaf-teN or khabareN and aafateN? Does aafateN sound more right than khabareN or are both akward in your experience?
    True that xabareN may be the correct pronunciation, but it is rare to hear it said this way. Almost 90+% you may only hear xabreN. The same is not true in case of aafateN as it remains aafateN in spoken Urdu too.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    True that xabareN may be the correct pronunciation, but it is rare to hear it said this way. Almost 90+% you may only hear xabreN. The same is not true in case of aafateN as it remains aafateN in spoken Urdu too.
    That's what I've noticed too.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Native language
    JA- English & Creole
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by UrduMedium View Post
    True that xabareN may be the correct pronunciation, but it is rare to hear it said this way. Almost 90+% you may only hear xabreN. The same is not true in case of aafateN as it remains aafateN in spoken Urdu too.
    Can we concoct an explanation for this? Why the difference? I wonder if it has to do with the juxtaposition of f and t seeming strange to Hindi-Urdu speakers.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    Can we concoct an explanation for this? Why the difference? I wonder if it has to do with the juxtaposition of f and t seeming strange to Hindi-Urdu speakers.
    It's the "t", I guess, that is leading to preservation of the schwa: similar thing happens with words like rahmat, fursat, etc.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Native language
    JA- English & Creole
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: Urdu/Hindi: schwa deletion

    harakat (commonly pronounced harkat) when pluralised becomes harakateN.

    How do you pronounce this is in common Urdu/Hindi with schwa-deletion?

    What seems right to me is harkateN. Comments?

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •