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Thread: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

  1. #1
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    Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    The two words seem to be very similar in sound and meaning.
    Cadê tu? = Where are you?
    Где ты(Gdye tï)? = Where are you?

    Now the Portuguese wiktionary says (without citing any sources) that cadê is a
    Forma abreviada de "que é (feito) de?"
    And according to Terence Wade in Russian Etymological Dictionary, где is related to Common Slavic root *-de as in здесь(zdes', here).
    So apparently, if we believe the Portuguese Wiktionary, they are unrelated.
    So is this just a surprising coincidence?

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by terredepomme View Post
    The two words seem to be very similar in sound and meaning.
    Cadê tu? = Where are you?
    Где ты(Gdye tï)? = Where are you?

    Now the Portuguese wiktionary says (without citing any sources) that cadê is a

    And according to Terence Wade in Russian Etymological Dictionary, где is related to Common Slavic root *-de as in здесь(zdes', here).
    So apparently, if we believe the Portuguese Wiktionary, they are unrelated.
    So is this just a surprising coincidence?
    There are many such coincidences of apparent cognates which are not related, for example: Spanish ‘mucho’ and English “much’, German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    I think there is a very silimar word in Bulgarian: kade, meaning where to, probably in some other South Slavic languages as well. The Russian gdye is related to the Polish gdzie. You could check what they claim as the etymology of gdzie or the Bulgarian kade.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    for example: Spanish ‘mucho’ and English “much’, German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.
    To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by terredepomme View Post
    To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.
    'Much' i derived from M.E. muchel, from O.E. micel "great in amount or extent," from P.Gmc. *mekilaz, from PIE *meg- "great (cognate with Latin 'magnus') while 'mucho' is derived from Latin 'multus' . These words are therefore not cognates. Relation between PIE stems 'mel' and 'meg' is just a hypothese.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by terredepomme View Post
    To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.
    These are different PIE stems, and as such the words should be regarded as not cognates. According to literature much i derived from from M.E. muchel, from O.E. micel "great in amount or extent," from P.Gmc. *mekilaz, from PIE *meg- "great."Spanish 'mucho' i derived from Latin 'multum'.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by LilianaB View Post
    I think there is a very silimar word in Bulgarian: kade, meaning where to, probably in some other South Slavic languages as well. The Russian gdye is related to the Polish gdzie. You could check what they claim as the etymology of gdzie or the Bulgarian kade.
    Old Slavic къдѣ => Bulgarian {къдe (before 1945: къдѣ), abbreviated где, де} Russian где (before 1945: гдѣ), Polish gdzie.
    When Ъ is omitted, then K changes to G before the voiced consonant D. In Russian and Polish, Ъ is always omitted.
    According to Fassmer, Sobolebski supposed the final ѣ to be influenced by the locative case ending.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    I quite agree with Max Vasmer that this word is directly linked with the Vedic kū and kuha "where". This is how this word appears in Russian-Sanskrit Dictionary of Common and Cognate Words

    2123 где
    hde कू
    gde where? where?
    With the addition of the suff -da which is used to form a number of question words and demonstrative pronouns (cp. когда kogda = Skr. kada कद 'when'; тогда togda Skr. tada तद 'then', куда kuda = Avestan kudā 'where' etc.) in Locative. Voicing of /k/ before a voiced stop is common. UA де; O.RU къде; BG де, къде́; SRB кди, SLO gdė̑, kjè; CZ kde; PL gdzie, O.LS (h)dźe, L.LS źe, źo. VAS 1

    As for Portuguese, I would tentatively presume that it is also linked to the old kū but it needs further research.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    For the origin of the Portuguese word, see the first post.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    For the origin of the Portuguese word, see the first post.
    I am not qualified to discuss Portuguese, I did read the first post but it is in my nature not to take anything I read in an etymological dictionaries for granted. I do not say that it is not correct, I just do not know the full story behind it. I have my own opinion about Russian gde. If the Portuguese dictionary you quoted is correct then we have a rare case of a phonetic and semantic coincidence of otherwise not related words. In any case, is an interesting fact. Thank you for highlighting it!

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    As to 'cadê' (Portuguese), sometimes it's possible to hear some (mainly older) people say 'quêde' instead of 'cadê', in Brazil (or at least in the Northeast).

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jamin View Post
    There are many such coincidences of apparent cognates which are not related, for example: [...] German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.
    Please elaborate that point!

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo di fuoco View Post
    Please elaborate that point!
    I just mean that unrelated words may take a very similar form, and mislead people to think that they have the same origin, especially if they have the same meaning.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    It reminds me of slovak kde (where).
    Kde si? = Where are you?
    Cadê tu? = Where are you?

    I think the pronunciation is also very similar.

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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    If cadê and quêde do derive from "que é (feito) de", then it makes sense that the qu- here is the qu- of Latin interrogatives, a cognate of the wh- of English interrogatives, may be related to the k-/ch-/-g of Russian interrogatives and hence to the g- of где.

  16. #16
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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    "Cadê" comes from "Que é de".
    Kkkkkkkkk.

  17. #17
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    Re: Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)

    I wonder, what is the origin of the preposition de in Romance languages? The final -e does suggest an old Locative case in -e. In Russian there is куда ku-da "where to?" and г-де g-de "where?" in which g is a voiced and reduced form of ku and -de is believed to be a locative of -da.

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