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Thread: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

  1. #1
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    Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Hallo,

    I found this site where it says that the Dutch pronounce the ending -tie as -tsie while in Flemish it's pronounced -sie and I was wondering if this difference extends to the pronunciation of words in -tionaal and -tioneel that I sometimes hear pronounced -tsj- and sometimes -sj-.
    I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.

    Bedankt!

  2. #2
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Hmm.. ik heb heel erg mijn twijfels over de 'correcte' uitspraak van rode en goede volgens die site.

    Voor wat betreft woorden die eindigen op -tionaal en -tioneel, ik zou zeggen dat ik een voorkeur heb voor de -tsj- uitspraak, maar dat ik de -sj- uitspraak niet raar vind klinken. Zelfde geldt voor het woord 'station'. Maar ik woon in België..

  3. #3
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    I found this site where it says that the Dutch pronounce the ending -tie as -tsie while in Flemish it's pronounced -sie and I was wondering if this difference extends to the pronunciation of words in -tionaal and -tioneel that I sometimes hear pronounced -tsj- and sometimes -sj-.
    Yes, it does.
    If you mean the pronunciation as the cluster of regular pronunciations of the Dutch letters (t)+s+j at least, because in Dutch we sometimes pronounce <tsj> as English ch and (tsjonge, Tsjechië) <sj> as English sh (e.g. sjaal, meisje). That's not (supposed to be) the sound in nationaal for example!

    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.
    I can only imagine the pronunciation of terug in two syllables (as te-rug instead of trug) for the sake of rhyme or rythm.

    It is not wrong to pronounce goede, rode, and many more with a /d/, but in spoken language goeie, rooie, etc. are more common. Naargelang wordt de /d/ ook een /w/, bvb. oude - ouwe, etc.

  4. #4
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    The site is wrong about goede and rode. The way they say it has to be pronounced is not the correct way. The 'd' has to be pronounced. I admit that a lot of people don't, but that does not make it correct.
    With the risk that it sounds a bit arrogant and pedantic, but more educated people do pronounce it with a 'd'.

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Joannes View Post
    Yes, it does.
    If you mean the pronunciation as the cluster of regular pronunciations of the Dutch letters (t)+s+j at least, because in Dutch we sometimes pronounce <tsj> as English ch and (tsjonge, Tsjechië) <sj> as English sh (e.g. sjaal, meisje). That's not (supposed to be) the sound in nationaal for example!
    I hadn't noticed that there is more than one possible pronunciation of "tsj" and "sj". I only knew the ones you described (as English "ch" / "sh").

    I can only imagine the pronunciation of terug in two syllables (as te-rug instead of trug) for the sake of rhyme or rythm.
    So the "te" part of "terug" isn't pronounced as in "terecht", but sticks to the "r" like in "Utrecht"? Hm, I did notice that something like this happens with "trusten".

  6. #6
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    I think it's not the same for 'goede' and 'rode'. For what I know 'goeie' is more common than 'rooie'. I'm quite educated and I would not say 'rooie', but I do say 'goeie' (also 'ouwe'.).

  7. #7
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    I think 'rooie', 'ouwe', etc. are not quite common in Flanders - or at least belong to a very informal register...
    Last edited by ThomasK; 9th July 2012 at 9:06 AM.

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.
    This site surprised me as well. It immediately reminded me about a movie called Flodder , a comedy about class differences within Dutch society.

    If you're not 100% sure how to use rooie, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.

    Een rooie rakker = A term to belittle a person with socialist political believes.
    Een rooie = A negative term for a red-haired person.
    Een rooie kop = A rather crude expression for someone who's blushing.

    Goeie at the other hand is colloquial for goede.

    PS. If you have not seen Flodder, consider it. Although the artistic qualities of this movie are debatable, there’s no doubt that one can learn a lot about how language is used across different social classes within Dutch society.

    Groetjes,

    Herman
    Last edited by NewtonCircus; 9th July 2012 at 4:56 AM.

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Thanks for all the comments and thanks for the movie suggestion NewtonCircus. Talking about "rooie", I was reminded of Marco Borsato's song "Rood" where he actually uses both rode and rooie in one sentence:
    "... laat alles achter, kijk vooruit en met mijn laatste rooie cent koop ik een veel te grote bos met honderdvijftig rode rozen ..."

  10. #10
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    That is quite interesting: 'mijn laatste rooie cent' is very pejorative, I'd say, where the other is descriptive.

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by NewtonCircus View Post
    If you're not 100% sure how to use rooie, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.
    Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    Talking about "rooie", I was reminded of Marco Borsato's song "Rood" where he actually uses both rode and rooie in one sentence:
    "... laat alles achter, kijk vooruit en met mijn laatste rooie cent koop ik een veel te grote bos met honderdvijftig rode rozen ..."
    Like this one Geen rooie cent hebben means to not have any money at all, so this would be a variation of that expression

  12. #12
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopes View Post
    Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.

    Maybe there is a different feeling in North and South, I would not be astonished... But the fact that there is this difference in the song points at something, I think.

  13. #13
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by NewtonCircus View Post
    This site surprised me as well. It immediately reminded me about a movie called Flodder , a comedy about class differences within Dutch society.

    If you're not 100% sure how to use rooie, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.

    Een rooie rakker = A term to belittle a person with socialist political believes.
    Een rooie = A negative term for a red-haired person.
    Een rooie kop = A rather crude expression for someone who's blushing.

    Goeie at the other hand is colloquial for goede.

    PS. If you have not seen Flodder, consider it. Although the artistic qualities of this movie are debatable, there’s no doubt that one can learn a lot about how language is used across different social classes within Dutch society.

    Groetjes,

    Herman
    Aan de andere kant was er in het gulden tijdperk ook de term ''een rooitje", zijnde 1000 gulden. Gek genoeg was de kleur van het bewuste bankbriefje ...groen.

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopes View Post
    Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.
    I agree with Herman on this one. In Flanders, "rooie" has a derogatory, even insulting, connotation; it is, or can be, in the same register as "een vuile socialist".
    Mientras el asno está echado, no puede estar levantado. (Timoneda)

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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    Maybe when used as a substantive ne rooie. When used as an adjective... I pronounce it rooie all the time:

    Welken auto is den uwe?
    Daar, die rooie.

    Ik stond daar met een rooie kop... (idiom to mean embarassed)

    Etc.

  16. #16
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    To me rooie is informal as for the pronuciation, sometimes derogatory...

  17. #17
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    Re: Irregular pronunciation in Dutch

    For me, "rooie", "goeie", "ouwe" are the normal pronunciation in spoken language, "rode", "goede" and "oude" are written but not used in every day speech unless someone talks very formal.

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