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Thread: lapis, lapidis

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    lapis, lapidis

    Hello guys,
    I have a doubt remaining from this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2490647

    What is the correct genitive for lapis? lapidis (so the plural ablative -> lapidibus) or lapis (pl. abl. lapidiis)?

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    (gen.) lapidis
    according to my dictionary and this.
    Last edited by Agró; 22nd October 2012 at 11:26 PM.
    FAVSTA DIES TIBI ILLVCEAT

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    May I say that I am baffled by your question? Even if the genitive were lapis, how could the abl. pl. be “lapidiis”? As a matter of fact, in Old Latin we have a single reference for the abl. sing. lapi, implying that the word could be transferred from the d stems to the i stems. Moreover, in classical Latin we have the gen. pl. lapiderum. The automatically generated paradigm on the Wiktionary site does not of course take any of this into account.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    Moreover, in classical Latin we have the gen. pl. lapiderum.
    Where can we find this form in Classical Latin?

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Lewis and Short give a reference to Gellius.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    Lewis and Short give a reference to Gellius.
    That's Gnaeus Gellius, so also Old Latin (cited by the Late Latin grammarian Charisius). So it has the same status as Ennius's ablative lapi.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    I am not quite sure about “same status”. Ennius lived a generation or two before Gellius. lapi is presumably an authentic Old Latin variant. lapiderum looks more like an ad-hoc formation, by analogy to words like gener-um, reanalysed as gen-erum.
    Last edited by fdb; 23rd October 2012 at 12:27 PM.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    May I say that I am baffled by your question? Even if the genitive were lapis, how could the abl. pl. be “lapidiis”? As a matter of fact, in Old Latin we have a single reference for the abl. sing. lapi, implying that the word could be transferred from the d stems to the i stems. Moreover, in classical Latin we have the gen. pl. lapiderum. The automatically generated paradigm on the Wiktionary site does not of course take any of this into account.
    My bad: what I actually would to mean is:

    If lapis, lapidis = 3rd declension, consonant stem, following the pattern of rex, regis: plural ablative lapidibus
    If lapis, lapis = 3rd declension, i-stem, following the pattern of civis, civis: plural ablative lapibus

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by Casquilho View Post
    If lapis, lapidis = 3rd declension, consonant stem, following the pattern of rex, regis: plural ablative lapidibus
    Yes, this is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casquilho View Post
    If lapis, lapis = 3rd declension, i-stem, following the pattern of civis, civis: plural ablative lapibus
    This is not the case, except with the archaic abl. sing. lapi used by the early poet Ennius.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Thank you, fdb.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    I am not quite sure about “same status”.
    What I meant was that both forms are extremely rare, non-classical, useless (at best) for the vast majority of Latin learners, and justifiably absent from the Wiktionary paradigm.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    The classical form is làpis làpidis, for the most classical authors (e.g. Cicero, Livius) with lapidibus used for the ablative. Lapi in abl. and lapid-erum in pl. gen. is used by Ennius and is considered "arcaic".

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by stevelogan View Post
    Lapi in abl. and lapid-erum in pl. gen. is used by Ennius and is considered "arcaic".
    Lapi appears in Ennius Ann XV, quoted by Priscian: obcumbunt multi letum ferroque lapique. Priscian interpreted this as fdb does above, assuming that lapis had an parisyllabic declension in Old Latin ("vetustissimi tamen etiam huius lapis protulerunt", although he doesn't provide any actual examples of genitive lapis, and there may be alternative explanations for ablative lapi).

    Lapiderum is not attested in Ennius, but in Cn. Gellius, as stated already above.

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    Re: lapis, lapidis

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnPrep View Post
    Lapi appears in Ennius Ann XV, quoted by Priscian: obcumbunt multi letum ferroque lapique. Priscian interpreted this as fdb does above, assuming that lapis had an parisyllabic declension in Old Latin ("vetustissimi tamen etiam huius lapis protulerunt", although he doesn't provide any actual examples of genitive lapis, and there may be alternative explanations for ablative lapi).

    Lapiderum is not attested in Ennius, but in Cn. Gellius, as stated already above.
    I checked before writing, and that was what I found in Georges-Calonghi dictionary in use in Italy from 1950 so far: Lapiderum feminine genitive pl. Enn., Varr. et Ser. I cannot cross-check with other fonts at the moment, my bad... Probably there is a typo in Georges.

    The general sense was that lapiderum is archaic. Cn. Gellius is arcaic enough...

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