Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 37 of 37

Thread: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: The Vocative

    ^ I have similar thoughts as you. I am not sure we can use are/arii/re/rii/abe in the same way as we use ai.

    From a children's book..

    ai zamiin aasmaan ke maalik
    saarii dunyaa jahaan ke maalik

    We can't substitute any of those here. They do not afford the same dignity.

    ai MaliiHaabaad ke rangiiN gulsitaaN alvidaa3
    alvidaa3 ai sarzamiin-i-subH-i-xandaaN alvidaa3

    ai Gham-i-dil kyaa karuuN
    ai vaHsaht-i-dil kyaa karuuN

    ai jazbah-i-dil gar maiN chaahuuN, har chiiz muqaabil aa jaa'e
    manzil ke liye do gaam chaluuN aur saamne manzil aa jaa'e

    The above particles can't be used because they are reserved for persons and not things.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi: The Vocative

    Somehow I am not convinced abou the Persian origins of ai. I think it's Indic, I can be wrong of course but it is hard to believe that Indic languages have inherited the Persian vocative particle.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: The Vocative

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Somehow I am not convinced abou the Persian origins of ai. I think it's Indic, I can be wrong of course but it is hard to believe that Indic languages have inherited the Persian vocative particle.
    I can't believe you've said this, marrish SaaHib!

    ای بخارا شاد باش و دیر زی
    میر زتو شادمان آید ہمے

    رودکی

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi: The Vocative

    Quote Originally Posted by lcfatima View Post
    I wasn't sure if abe, aare, and Oy were vocative or were some kind of exclamation. ... May I use these with someone's name or to address a group as a vocative in the same way as he and O?
    Oye can either be used with someone's name or be used standalone. In the title of the film "Oye Lucky, Lucky Oye", it is being used with the character called Lucky (played by Abhay Deol). The rest are mostly used standalone, and they are sometimes used for addressing (though without coupling them with the name), but mostly otherwise just as interjections.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: The Vocative

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Somehow I am not convinced abou the Persian origins of ai. I think it's Indic, I can be wrong of course but it is hard to believe that Indic languages have inherited the Persian vocative particle.
    In addition to the Rudaki shi3r I have quoted, where does the alif of "xudaayaa" come from? That is a vocative suffix. Also we have the Arabic "yaa", albeit used in specific cases..yaa Allaah, yaa MuHammad, yaa Ali, yaa Hussain etc

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Qureshpor SaaHib, now the thread title is fixed it is no longer a topic. I never denied the Persian [ai] or [ay but I think a similar sound is Indic. I am well aware of the Persian usage but I thought the Persian usage was parallel to the Indic one.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Native language
    JA- English & Creole
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Qureshpor SaaHib, now the thread title is fixed it is no longer a topic. I never denied the Persian [ai] or [ay but I think a similar sound is Indic. I am well aware of the Persian usage but I thought the Persian usage was parallel to the Indic one.

    he Plaats....ilm barsaae!

    S P اي ऐ ai, and H. अए aʼe, intj. O! ho! holla! (used in calling or addressing); ah!:—ai-ki, O that!:—ai kāsh-ki, O! would that!, would to God that! ai wāʼe, Ah! alas! woe is me!:—ai wāh, intj.=ai wāʼe, q.v.;—Really! very likely! you don't say so! did you ever! never!:—aʼe haʼe, intj. Ah! alas! dear me!



    It would also seem Platts sees ai and aye as the same, with one coming by way of the Prakrit sugar cane juice machine.
    Last edited by tonyspeed; 23rd November 2012 at 12:27 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    In ihaveacomputer's example, the character's wife's name is Radha. If we assume that his calling out to her "he Radha" is wrong, just one off or even that it is associated with the name of Krishna's consort, what then is the all purpose vocative particle for the Urdu "ai" in modern day Hindi? Clearly "he" has a specialised usage.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    In ihaveacomputer's example, the character's wife's name is Radha. If we assume that his calling out to her "he Radha" is wrong, just one off or even that it is associated with the name of Krishna's consort,
    I thought he said "Durga". And I am assuming that in the film it must be "e Durga", not "he Durga". I am still waiting from ihaveacomputer to hear more about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    ... what then is the all purpose vocative particle for the Urdu "ai" in modern day Hindi? Clearly "he" has a specialised usage.
    It's "e". Pronounced like "ei" in "eight". You won't find in a lot of literature? Well, maybe. Your question is anyway about modern-day Hindi. "O", "ai", "oye" and some English terms are also used a lot.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    he Plaats....ilm barsaae!


    S P
    اي ऐ ai, and H. अए aʼe, intj. O! ho! holla! (used in calling or addressing); ah!:—ai-ki, O that!:—ai kāsh-ki, O! would that!, would to God that! ai wāʼe, Ah! alas! woe is me!:—ai wāh, intj.=ai wāʼe, q.v.;—Really! very likely! you don't say so! did you ever! never!:—aʼe haʼe, intj. Ah! alas! dear me!



    It would also seem Platts sees ai and aye as the same, with one coming by way of the Prakrit sugar cane juice machine.
    he shriimaan tonyspeed! aap kaa bahut bahut dhanyavaad! I never thought of checking this up!

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Native language
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Posts
    289

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    I think marrish may be right. Ai/e is a parallel development across Indo-Iranian, as maybe is -o. Indeed, something akin may even be present in Lithuanian (which seems to mirror Sanskrit very closely as it has preserved a lot of ancient Indo-European features). The Eastern Hindi 'e maai' (O mother) comes to mind. Note that the -e and -o vocatives also seem to apply as suffixes. Interesting section comparing Sanskrit, Avestan and Lithuanian in this 1862 book. The Sanskrit form apparently was 'e' (Beekes book on Comparative Indo-European linguistics), but even that appears to be an evolution of the original 'ai' diphthongal form. I also found examples of Sanskrit usage of aye and ayi forms in this book on Sanskrit Pragmatics.

    Update: the more I read about this, the more I realize my knowledge of IE vocatives has gaps. I am leaving it here for the book links I provided but really had the impulse to delete this post because it has many gaps in it.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Native language
    English (NE US), Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi
    Posts
    36

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by hindiurdu View Post
    I think marrish may be right. Ai/e is a parallel development across Indo-Iranian, as maybe is -o. Indeed, something akin may even be present in Lithuanian (which seems to mirror Sanskrit very closely as it has preserved a lot of ancient Indo-European features). The Eastern Hindi 'e maai' (O mother) comes to mind. Note that the -e and -o vocatives also seem to apply as suffixes. Interesting section comparing Sanskrit, Avestan and Lithuanian in this 1862 book. The Sanskrit form apparently was 'e' (Beekes book on Comparative Indo-European linguistics), but even that appears to be an evolution of the original 'ai' diphthongal form. I also found examples of Sanskrit usage of aye and ayi forms in this book on Sanskrit Pragmatics.

    Update: the more I read about this, the more I realize my knowledge of IE vocatives has gaps. I am leaving it here for the book links I provided but really had the impulse to delete this post because it has many gaps in it.
    I'm straying out of my element here but I wonder if this is related further back. I'm reminded of the vocative (seen in singluar second declension nouns) in Latin. E.g. from Brutus, "et tu, Brute?"

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by langnerd View Post
    I'm reminded of the vocative (seen in singluar second declension nouns) in Latin. E.g. from Brutus, "et tu, Brute?"
    I think that only means, "And you, Brute?", langnerd - I don't see any vocative used here explicitly, unless I am not getting your point. (That might be very much possible, since I can understand little Latin.)

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    I think that only means, "And you, Brute?", langnerd - I don't see any vocative used here explicitly, unless I am not getting your point. (That might be very much possible, since I can understand little Latin.)
    Idiomatically it means ''You too, Brutus?'' Please note that the nominative form of this name is as written in the English sentence [-us], but in the Latin one it is in vocative case, which in this instance ends in [-e].

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    Idiomatically it means ''You too, Brutus?'' Please note that the nominative form of this name is as written in the English sentence [-us], but in the Latin one it is in vocative case, which in this instance ends in [-e].
    Would this be equivalent to "raadh-e" (Raadhe) from "Raadhaa"? (Punjabi: kuRii-e, O girl!)

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    Would this be equivalent to "raadh-e" (Raadhe) from "Raadhaa"? (Punjabi: kuRii-e, O girl!)
    Yes, it would. Only that in Latin it is masculine, not feminine.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Native language
    English (NE US), Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi
    Posts
    36

    Re: Hindi: Use of Vocative Particle "he"

    Yes, thank you marrish for explaining. Certain nouns in Latin make this change, and the vocative is understood from the declension (ending), though the vocative particle "O" is often used (and in nouns that are not of the same type, the vocative particle may be necessary if the vocative is not understood from the context).

    So the declension of "Brutus" might go: Nom. "Brutus," Gen. :Bruti," ... Voc "Brute" or "O Brute".

    I'll stop since we'll get really off topic, my point was just that this might come from the same place as Radhaa --> Radhe and so on.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •