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Thread: в России/на Руси

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    в России/на Руси

    Приветствую вас!

    I'd like to know what's the nuance between "в России", the prepositional of Россия, and "на Руси", whose grammatical category I've been unable to find so far. Is the latter merely a variant of the former? When to use each one?

    Спасибо!

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Россия is the name of exact state with which usually preposition в is used (probably the only two exceptions are Украина and Гоа).
    Русь - hystorical name of the region with rather indefinite borders and limits, and maybe this is the reason why historically preposition на has fixed, like with islands. Actually this is the same reason why на Украине: in former times it was the name of the margin South-West regions of the Moscow state.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    preposition в is used (probably the only two exceptions are Украина and Гоа)
    Бали? Куба? Ямайка?
    Last edited by gvozd; 10th December 2012 at 5:13 PM.
    Дай досмотреть, как умирает день. Как его сердце в океане тонет... (Дельфин, Sunset)

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
    Бали? Куба? Ямайка?
    They are islands unlike Goa. However maybe Goa is so isolated and different from the rest of the subcontinent, that may be perceived as an island, and that is why на Гоа.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    They are islands unlike Goa. However maybe Goa is so isolated and different from the rest of the subcontinent, that may be perceived as an island, and that is why на Гоа.
    На Аляске?
    Дай досмотреть, как умирает день. Как его сердце в океане тонет... (Дельфин, Sunset)

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by gvozd View Post
    На Аляске?
    Actually the most part of peninsulas are used with на: Таймыр, Камчатка, Аппенины. Maybe Крым is one of the exceptions. So Гоа to some extent is also a kind of peninsula in the conscience of the people, being surrounded but so different territories.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    but:
    в древней Руси (in ancient Rus)
    в Западной Украине (in Western Ukraine)

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    Actually the most part of peninsulas are used with на: Таймыр, Камчатка, Аппенины. Maybe Крым is one of the exceptions. So Гоа to some extent is also a kind of peninsula in the conscience of the people, being surrounded but so different territories.
    I think the same might be applied to Ukraine, in fact. Maybe it's thought not quite as a formation inside which people live, but as a land, a soil on which they do. Forests, woodlands, for example, do not have borders either, but each of them has an inside, and so we say: «в таком-то лесу».
    Last edited by e2-e4 X; 10th December 2012 at 6:12 PM.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by turkjey5 View Post
    but:
    в древней Руси (in ancient Rus)
    в Западной Украине (in Western Ukraine)
    Древняя Русь is a scientific term, while на Руси is very old construction. So на Древней Руси would sound a mix of styles, of course.
    Actually Западная Украина is also often used with на. But this is quite definite geographical notion unlike ancient Украина (there were several territories with this name, such as Окская украина, Крымская украина, etc., cf. Western-European marks). By the way, the recent practice to call Украина "the Ukraine" in English also is a reminder of the ancient notion.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by e2-e4 X View Post
    I think the same might be applied to Ukraine, in fact. Maybe it's thought not quite as a formation inside which people live, but as a land, a soil on which they do. Forests, woodlands, for example, do not have borders either, but each of them has an inside, and so we say: «в таком-то лесу».
    Well, the closest analogy is just на окраине. So I think you are right and на Украине, на Руси, на Вологодщине, на Ярославщине, на Неметчине, на Кубани are the same constructions.
    And even на Урале, на Кавказе may be connected not with the notion на горе, but just на земле, at the territory without exact borders.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    By the way, the recent practice to call Украина "the Ukraine" in English also is a reminder of the ancient notion.
    My English must be getting rusty, I never heard of that.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by turkjey5 View Post
    My English must be getting rusty, I never heard of that.
    The Ukraine - geographical name, see Ukraine (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition (2003))

    Also more than 700 examples since 1990 in the CCAE.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Предлоги "на" и "в" с географическими названиями - одна из самых запутанных проблем. Многие пытались распутать этот клубок, но до конца так и не получилось. Лучше запоминать, что с чем сочетается: на Смоленщине, но в Смоленской области; на Руси, но в Древней Руси и т.д.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbuz View Post
    Предлоги "на" и "в" с географическими названиями - одна из самых запутанных проблем. Многие пытались распутать этот клубок, но до конца так и не получилось. Лучше запоминать, что с чем сочетается: на Смоленщине, но в Смоленской области; на Руси, но в Древней Руси и т.д.
    Если бы только с географическими.
    На небе мерцала одинокая звезда.
    В небе мерцала одинокая звезда.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroseika View Post
    They are islands unlike Goa. However maybe Goa is so isolated and different from the rest of the subcontinent, that may be perceived as an island, and that is why на Гоа.
    Интересно, почему не говорят "на Ирландии". А с Новой Зеландией возможны, по-моему, оба варианта.
    Кстати, несколько лет назад мне встречалась Украина с "в", а сейчас, кажется, вернулось к "на"?
    Честно говоря, резало глаз "еду в Украину". И "из Украины" тоже мне не кажется естественным, хотя я понимаю, что у таких изменений есть политические мотивы. Но все равно ерунда.

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    Re: в России/на Руси

    "На Новую Зеландию", конечно, нельзя. Тем более, что она вообще-то не остров, а государство на двух больших и нескольких маленьких островах. То же и с Ирландией, только наоборот: она занимает не весь остров.

    Если государство, то "в", даже если оно расположено на острове. Украина, действительно, исключение, что, как считается связано с её этимологией ("на окраину").
    Если же остров не является государством (Бали, Канары, Сицилия) или не воспринимается как государство (Мадагаскар, например, и вообще любыеэкзотические острова), то едем на остров. Также едем на гору, полуостров и др.

    Интеесный случай со Шри-Ланкой: на Цейлон, но в Шри-Ланку (хотя многие и говорят "на Шри-Ланку", но это неправильно).

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