Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: she herself

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Native language
    "Turkish-English"
    Posts
    234

    she herself

    Good evening all,

    Is the "she herself" in the below sentence belong to Rebecca or Urfried?

    "Rebecca retreated. Her importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer her to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed her services where she herself would most gladly have paid them, by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."(Ivanhoe)


    Many thanks,

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts, U.S.
    Native language
    English - U.S.
    Posts
    12,312

    Re: she herself

    Rebecca would have gladly have paid for the privilege of taking care of Ivanhoe, if Urfried had not employed her to do that.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Native language
    British English (Sussex)
    Posts
    11,062

    Re: she herself

    I don't get the idea of "paying for" the privilege. I'd say it means she would gladly have given of her services, without being asked.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Native language
    English - England
    Posts
    24,395

    Re: she herself

    I don't think it is anything to do with money. It is the phrasal verb "to pay service" = to render service - now only found in "to pay lip service."

    "... Urfried had employed her services where she herself would most gladly have paid them"
    "There are no rules in English, only guidance. Some guidance looks like a rule; it probably isn't."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Native language
    English UK
    Posts
    36,406

    Re: she herself

    I agree with Egmont: I think "she herself" refers to Rebecca.

    But you're right that it's not clear in isolation, bet: it's only context that can tell you who's being referred to.
    In these shoes?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Native language
    English - England
    Posts
    24,395

    Re: she herself

    Without pronouns:

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Ulfried's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."


    I think Sir Walter stayed up too late when writing this.
    "There are no rules in English, only guidance. Some guidance looks like a rule; it probably isn't."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Native language
    English UK
    Posts
    36,406

    Re: she herself

    I think it's Urfried had employed Rebecca's services....

    But I also agree that it's confusing.
    In these shoes?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Native language
    British English (Sussex)
    Posts
    11,062

    Re: she herself

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulQ View Post
    Without pronouns:

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Ulfried's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe.


    I think Sir Walter stayed up too late when writing this.
    With this interpretation you are saying that Rebecca had persuaded Urfried to allow Urfried to quit the turret and Urfried had employed her own services...I think that doesn't make much sense.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Native language
    "Turkish-English"
    Posts
    234

    Re: she herself

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulQ View Post

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Ulfried's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."


    I think Sir Walter stayed up too late when writing this.
    This is exactly what I got from that sentence, too, but I just wanted to make sure due to the "she herself" part coming just after Urfried and confusing me as if it is referring to Urfried.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Native language
    "Turkish-English"
    Posts
    234

    Re: she herself

    Actually, sorry what I understood from that sentence was;

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Rebecca's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."

    Meaning; "after that much insistence Rebecca at last gained Urfried's permission to leave the turret and Urfried as a requite of this permission made use of Rebecca's services (where Rebecca would voluntarily and gladly accept even if Urfried didn't ask from her) by the bedside of Ivanhoe.

    Am I wrong with this?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Native language
    British English (Sussex)
    Posts
    11,062

    Re: she herself

    You've got it now

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Native language
    English - England
    Posts
    24,395

    Re: she herself

    No. That is not it:

    http://pd.sparknotes.com/lit/ivanhoe/section29.html
    ...when the colloquy was interrupted by the harsh voice of Urfried, the old crone of the turret.
    Ulfried, who was captive, with Rebecca, in the turret, speaks:
    "...And you, [Rebecca] daughter of an accursed race, go to the sick man's chamber, and tend him until my return; and woe betide you if you again quit it without my permission!"
    then we have:
    Rebecca retreated [to the sick man's chamber]. Her [Rebecca's] importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer her [Ulfried] to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed her [Rebecca's] services where she herself [Rebecca] would most gladly have paid them, by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe.
    I think that's it.
    Last edited by PaulQ; 14th December 2012 at 5:32 PM.
    "There are no rules in English, only guidance. Some guidance looks like a rule; it probably isn't."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Native language
    "Turkish-English"
    Posts
    234

    Re: she herself

    But before that dialogue starting with "and you, daughter of an accursed race...", she (Urfried) says:

    "How, minion," said she to the female speaker, "is this the manner in which you requite the kindness which permitted thee to leave thy prison-cell yonder?
    So it's Rebecca not Urfried who is quitting the turret with the permission of Urfried after her (Rebecca's) importunities.


    and then comes the famous sentence:

    Rebecca retreated. Her importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer her to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed her services where she herself would most gladly have paid them, by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe.
    Suffer means to permit. So after insisting she was able to persuade Urfried to permit her (Rebecca) to quit the turret
    And Urfried had made use of her (Rebecca's) services, where she (Rebecca) herself would most gladly have paid them (in requite of the permission, I guess)

    And then comes this:
    With an understanding awake to their dangerous situation, and prompt to avail herself of each means of safety which occurred, Rebecca had hoped something from the presence of a man of religion, ....She watched the return of the supposed ecclesiastic, with the purpose of addressing him, and interesting him in favour of the prisoners; with what imperfect success the reader has been just acquainted.
    So she sneaks out of Ivanhoe's chamber to talk to the priest and Urfried is pissed off with this.

    Is that not right. I'm really confused now

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Native language
    English - Californian
    Posts
    9,108

    Re: she herself

    I understand this completely differently: Urfried has Rebecca do the services that Urfried would much rather have done herself.
    Rebecca retreated. Her [Rebecca's] importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer her [Rebecca] to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed her [Rebecca's] services where she herself [Urfried] would most gladly have paid them, by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe.
    The "she herself" refers to Urfried (who is trapped in the turret and thus can't do the services she is having Rebecca do), not to Rebecca.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Native language
    "Turkish-English"
    Posts
    234

    Re: she herself

    Why do you say she is "trapped" in the turret? She has the key to the prison cell where she and Rebecca are kept. She gets out of the cell and leaves Rebecca by herself.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Native language
    English - Californian
    Posts
    9,108

    Re: she herself

    I don't know anything about the plot of Ivanhoe - I just thought from Paul's explanation that Urfried was trapped in the turret. But it doesn't really matter. The "herself," to me, makes it clear that "she herself" refers to Urfried and not to Rebecca.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Greece
    Native language
    British English (Sussex)
    Posts
    11,062

    Re: she herself

    I don't see all the difficulty here. Scott names Rebecca at the beginning of the sentence, and all the 'she's' and 'her's' refer back to Rebecca. Where the other woman is meant, she is referred to by name.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •