Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Native language
    Israel - Hebrew
    Posts
    702

    A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Hebrew has one, but English doesn't. In Hebrew it's [adjective]+[noun in dative case]

    For example, if I would like to say that I feel coldness I'd say "Kar li". In English one might say "I'm cold", but that might also mean that my body temperature is low or that I have a cold personality (in these cases in Hebrew it would be "Ani kar").

    An object can also be added to be more specific. For example "my head hurts" would "koev li harosh".

    Does your language have such structure?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Native language
    French (France)
    Posts
    3,243

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    In Hebrew, and in most other Semitic languages, the preposition li is often used where Indo-European languages use the verb “to have”. If you concede this point to me, then I would maintain that the cited Hebrew constructions are just like French:

    J’ai froid
    J’ai mal à la tête.

    Or, with a dative construction, German:

    Mir ist es kalt
    Mir tut der Kopf weh.

    Any chance that the (modern) Hebrew construction is actually calqued on Yiddish?
    Last edited by fdb; 22nd December 2012 at 9:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Athen
    Native language
    Griechisch
    Age
    46
    Posts
    3,418

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Hi,

    do you mean for example the German "mir ist kalt" (= I am cold) or "mir ist warm"?

    In Modern Greek we usually use verbs with personal subjects: κρυώνω (= Ι am cold), πονάει το κεφάλι μου (= I have a headache).

    *cross-posted with fdb

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Native language
    Israel - Hebrew
    Posts
    702

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    I suppose it's quite possible that this structure is originated from either Yiddish or German. It doesn't exist in Biblical or Mishnaic Hebrew (to the best of my knowledge).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA (Φιλαδέλφεια)
    Native language
    Russian (Moscow)
    Posts
    3,976

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    In Russian there is a similar construction, except we use dative + adverb:

    мне холодно /mne kholodno/ - lit. to me [it is] coldly - I'm cold
    тебе трудно /tebye trudno/ - lit. to you [it is] difficultly - it's hard/difficult for you
    брату обидно /nam obidno/ - lit. to brother [it is] hurtfully - the brother is upset

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Native language
    Русский
    Posts
    436

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    I would just add that the grammatical category of all these words in such sentences (холодно, трудно, обидно) is a subject for controversy. Some say it is a (short) adjective, just like in Hebrew; others say it is a so-called «категория состояния» (roughly, 'state-word'). According to still others, it is indeed an adverb.
    Last edited by e2-e4 X; 24th December 2012 at 2:07 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Native language
    Hebrew
    Age
    21
    Posts
    1,935

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    But in hebrew you can swap words locations, li kar = kar li.

    is hamelucha adjective? li hanaar - adjective? or simply words that metaarim more the word before/after?
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Dutch has a different structure:
    - temperature: ik heb het koud (I have it cold); you can use 'to be' in this way: Het is mij te koud ('It is too cold to me'), but only with 'too', it seems to me
    - feelings: ik ben boos/... (I am angry)
    - pain: mijn hoofd doet pijn/ ik heb hoofdpijn (my head does hurt, lit./ I have a headache)

    Can one refer to emotions using an impersonal subject and a dative in Slavic languages by the way? (it is angry to me ?)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    US New York
    Native language
    Lithuanian
    Posts
    5,825

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Hi, Thomas. The only one I can think about right now in Polish is nieprzyjemnie mi ze -- it is unpleasant to me that (literally). There is a similar construction in Russian. Other than that -- I don't think so. At least it is not any general, grammatical rule in Polish and Russian. There are no universal rules that apply to all Slavic languages. (this is really a Dative - adverb construction -- the Polish example)
    Last edited by LilianaB; 27th December 2012 at 5:00 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Native language
    Русский
    Posts
    436

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Can one refer to emotions using an impersonal subject and a dative in Slavic languages by the way? (it is angry to me ?)
    As for Russian, it depends on the adjective. Some adjectives for emotional states can be used this way, some can't.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Native language
    Israel - Hebrew
    Posts
    702

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    But in hebrew you can swap words locations, li kar = kar li.
    The words are swapped when the stress is on the noun rather than the adjective, so you might say the meaning changes.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Native language
    Belgium, Dutch
    Posts
    6,384

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Could you tell me what kond of adjectives can, and which can't, or give me some idea?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Native language
    Hebrew
    Age
    21
    Posts
    1,935

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    @thomas, you can swap technically anywhere, though to deliver the wanted meaning theres an importance of place the word is.

    @tfighter, i ask again:
    is hamelucha adjective? li hanaar - adjective? or simply words that metaarim more the word before/after?
    המלוכה
    לי הנער
    if not, what are they?
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Native language
    Israel - Hebrew
    Posts
    702

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Quote Originally Posted by arielipi View Post
    is hamelucha adjective? li hanaar - adjective? or simply words that metaarim more the word before/after?
    המלוכה
    לי הנער
    if not, what are they?
    These are nouns obviously, and thus it's completely unrelated.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Native language
    Hebrew
    Age
    21
    Posts
    1,935

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    So what is an adjective?
    All the seats are taken in the parliament of fools!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Native language
    Русский
    Posts
    436

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Could you tell me what kond of adjectives can, and which can't, or give me some idea?
    I've got the thought now that those adjectives that can do so express things that can be separated from the feeler and so can be felt separately from the human himself, for example: "радостно" (adj) <= "радость" (noun, "joy"), "обидно" (adj) <= "обида" (noun, "offence"), "тяжело" (adj) <= "тяжёлый" (adj, "heavy, hard"), "интересно" (adj) <= "интерес" (noun, "interest"), "интересный" (adj, "[an] interesting [thing]"). Unlike the terms: "злой" (angry), "усталый" ("weary"), that in Russian have no connection with anything else than the feeler himself and are undistinguishable from him. The latter terms can't form the word for such construction.
    Last edited by e2-e4 X; 27th December 2012 at 5:08 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    US New York
    Native language
    Lithuanian
    Posts
    5,825

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Aren't they all adverbs? Or do you think they are some simplified forms of adjectives -- to be used in certain impersonal constructions?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Native language
    Русский
    Posts
    436

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    They can be thought of as adverbs or as short adjectives, or as neither... Syntactically, it looks like it is difficult for them to be classified as adverbs, because adverbs should attach to verbs and specify how the action proceeds, and there is no real verb here; although, again, syntactically, it is difficult for them to be thought of as short adjectives either, because there is no corresponding noun. I personally have no opinion on that.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    US New York
    Native language
    Lithuanian
    Posts
    5,825

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    I think they are adverbs, after all, because they really come from a construction similar to this one: It (feels) joyful to me (if literally translated), for example. (Мне радостно). They modify a verb, but the verb is dropped.
    Last edited by LilianaB; 27th December 2012 at 5:43 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Native language
    Русский
    Posts
    436

    Re: A sentence structure that describes something that one feels

    Well, in reality such statewords are used rather with the copular verbs ("было", "становится", "оказалось", …), and so they indeed can be called adverbs that modify the copular verbs, but it's more common for such verbs to take complements than adverbs, and short adjectives fit nicely. The only thing is that the copular verb has no subject in this case, which is not very common for them, but impersonal constructions are usual in Russian and make sense here.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •