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Thread: -ed past tense marker

  1. #21
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    What I would really like to know is: when was the first verb paradigm invented, and why?
    That is a pretty silly question, no offense.

    Does it occur to you, that, given someone, long ago, must have invented verb paradigms, they simply used a regular pattern of declensions?
    It does not occur to me that someone ever 'invented' a verb paradigm. Patterns are a natural feature of languages, and that is all a verb paradigm is.

    Why do you not assume, whoever wrote the paradigms just used a simple logic.
    Verb paradigms existed long before there was any writing.

    It would be more difficult to think of different endings for all the various parts!
    I suppose these just come from somewhere. I doubt anyone sits down and invents them; that would be absurd.

    The full paradigm of an Old Greek verb is something like 181 words. One would rapidly run out of suitable endings, if one tried to find radically different endings for each part, not to mention the learning of such an animal!
    I don't know anything about Greek; I do know that there is no natural language too difficult for a normally-developing human brain to learn in infancy—making something even as complex as you've described linguistic child's play, pun intended.

    JE

  2. #22
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    Does it occur to you, that, given someone, long ago, must have invented verb paradigms, they simply used a regular pattern of declensions?
    They did: sing-sang-sung is a pretty regular pattern, isn't it? The root-vowel is altered according to a pattern in order to derive the preterite and participles stems.

  3. #23
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    I don't quite follow berndf: for 'Pre-Proto-Germanic' I will read 'some other language' Do you mean, 'love' in 'some other language' was a causative verb? Or in Proto-Germanic it was/became a causative verb and was given the ending -jan??

    Chinese has no verb paradigm. It is the oldest extant language. All other old languages with rich verb paradigms are dead. English and Swedish have almost rid themselves of verb paradigms. English is very successful at the moment. Do you see a trend here?

  4. #24
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    Chinese has no verb paradigm.
    Really?

    It is the oldest extant language.
    Now this is just laughable.

    All other old languages with rich verb paradigms are dead.
    Quite false.

    English and Swedish have almost rid themselves of verb paradigms.
    Every English verb I can think of has a full paradigm (except maybe the verb beware, which seems to only occur in the imperative).

    Do you see a trend here?
    Nope.

  5. #25
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    sing-sang-sung :

    sing: present tense (very badly defined/named as such, and reaching into the future)

    sang: aorist, imperfective.

    sung: perfective, most definitely over and finished

    What happens is the tongue moves down. Instead of particles, tone is used to try to indicate time. A strategy abandoned by weak verbs. I think there are more weak verbs than strong verbs.

  6. #26
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    I can you can he can we can they can : a paradigm of 1!

  7. #27
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    a paradigm of 1!
    ... is still a paradigm.

    Your point?

  8. #28
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    sing-sang-sung :

    sing: present tense (very badly defined/named as such, and reaching into the future)

    sang: aorist, imperfective.

    sung: perfective, most definitely over and finished
    A most definitely flawed analysis of the English verb.

  9. #29
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    I don't quite follow berndf: for 'Pre-Proto-Germanic' I will read 'some other language' Do you mean, 'love' in 'some other language' was a causative verb? Or in Proto-Germanic it was/became a causative verb and was given the ending -jan??
    The verb to love is an invention in Proto-Germanic or one of its predecessor languages (pre-Proto-Germanic). The verb didn't exist in PIE. Or, to take an easier example: to fell. It is a causative derivation of to fall. I.e. to was produced by the suffix -jan rather than -an-, or just -j- in finite forms. So, in proto-Germanic you had the base verb *fallanaN conjugated by patterns inherited from PIE:
    Present: I fall = *fallijō
    Preterite: I fell = *fefall (reduplicating pattern; no 1st person ending in preterite)

    Now, as an innovation we have the causative derivation *fallijanaN (= to call to fall = to fall). The present tense stem for this new verb was *fallij-, a two syllable stem to which the "old" patterns weren't applicable. It therefore received the preterite suffix derived from *don:
    Present: I fell = *ik fallijō
    Preterite: I felled = *ik fallidoN

    In Old English, *ik fallijō underwent two changes: 1) the ending became -e and 2) the pattern CaCi underwent i-mutation and became CeC. Hence: ik fallijō became ic felle. The preterite ending, as explained above, changed to -ede in the 1st person singular and *ik fallidoN became ic fellede. Dropping the ending -e we obtain the modern forms: I fell - I felled.
    Last edited by berndf; 30th December 2012 at 9:04 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post

    Chinese has no verb paradigm. It is the oldest extant language. All other old languages with rich verb paradigms are dead.
    The oldest Greek (Mycenaean) texts are considerably older (ca. 1600 BC) than the oldest texts in Chinese. So Greek has a recorded history of about 3600 years and is still going strong. And it still has quite a vigorous system of verbal inflection.

  11. #31
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    @PedroGrazalema: Please, try to take in consideration what we are trying to tell you (including my post #19 ):

    Every language changes continouosely. For example, various vebal endings ("paradigms" in you terminology) appear and change and disappear during the centuries or millenia, eventually totally new endings take place. Nobody invents paradigms and nobody abolish them consciousely, this is a continuous process. Absolutely not "illogical" but complicated ... (to say so).

    The Romance furure is a perfect example. One might think that somebody invented some kind of "paradigms" (better: verbal endings or conjugation) to express the future tense, as follows (in Spanish):
    1.pers.sg. -ré
    2.pers.sg.-rás
    3.pers.sg.-rá

    1.pers.pl.-remos
    2.pers.pl.-réis
    3.pers.pl.-rán

    Instead, this verbal endings are not invented nor created but they are result of a longer process: the infitive of various verbs plus the conjugated form of "habere" were used together "so often", that the contracted forms of "habere" really became part of those verbs and thus they became "true" verbal endigns (quasi "paradigms") from the today's point of view. We are able to understand this process because we can compare many Romance languages and the Latin (practically a pre-Proto-Romance) is well documented.

    In other cases, as for example in case of the Germanic preterite, it is not so "obvious" or clear at the "first glance", because we do not have written documents about the pre-Proto-Germanic. But it doesn't mean that we cannot analyze or understand or even reconstruct them (to a certain degree, of course).

    @Berndf: thanks for your post #29, it's very intersting (at least for me ).
    Last edited by francisgranada; 30th December 2012 at 1:16 AM. Reason: Some typos, Germanic instead of German ...

  12. #32
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgranada View Post
    @Berndf: thanks for your post #29, it's very intersting (at least for me ).
    You are welcome.

  13. #33
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Then can we say that irregular verbs in English come directly from Proto Germanic/Old English; while regular verbs are later "inventions" or coming from other languages?
    Usually it's said that all the verbs for common every day use are irregular.
    "Ĉokolado". Do you know how to say "chócoleit" in "Espanis"?

  14. #34
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    <...>

    I believe, if you want to find the origin of '-ed', as I do, you will need to look for a similar particle. PIE *do- 'to, toward, upward' for example. Although the origin of English 'do' may lie in the PIE 'to' I still find the assumption we 'love did' when we don't 'love do' to be just that: an unsubstantiated assumption.

    And Happy pre-proto New Year!!
    Last edited by berndf; 31st December 2012 at 1:39 PM. Reason: Off-topic remarks removed

  15. #35
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by Youngfun View Post
    Then can we say that irregular verbs in English come directly from Proto Germanic/Old English; while regular verbs are later "inventions" or coming from other languages?
    The weak verbs was already fully developed in Old English. It was an innovation that happened before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Youngfun View Post
    Usually it's said that all the verbs for common every day use are irregular.
    Sure, those are the most basic verbs.

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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by PedroGrazalema View Post
    I believe, if you want to find the origin of '-ed', as I do, you will need to look for a similar particle. PIE *do- 'to, toward, upward' for example. Although the origin of English 'do' may lie in the PIE 'to' I still find the assumption we 'love did' when we don't 'love do' to be just that: an unsubstantiated assumption.
    Periphrastic verb forms are commonly used in languages to fill "holes". But this doesn't mean they have to change other verb forms. E.g. Modern English uses periphrastic verb forms for future, present and past perfect tenses but still retain the simple present and simple past.

  17. #37
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf
    In Old English, *ik fallijō underwent two changes: 1) the ending became -e and 2) the pattern CaCi underwent i-mutation and became CeC. Hence: ik fallijō became ic felle. The preterite ending, as explained above, changed to -ede in the 1st person singular and *ik fallidoN became ic fellede. Dropping the ending -e we obtain the modern forms: I fell - I felled.
    Didn't happen earlier than Old English? It's the same in Old Norse you see with the causative -ja augment so I presumed it was a common feature to West-North Germanic. Then again, I suppose if you give the languages all the tools they need to make a pretty bog-standard phonological shift (root 'a' vowel and a i/j suffix added to it) then eventually they'll all do the same thing but at slightly different times (and more importantly - independently). I hadn't thought about that before.

    @Juan: You don't have to be so scathing to others to successfully put your disagreement across. I agree with your points but this thread definitely feels academically devalued by the tone that has been devolved to.

  18. #38
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by Alxmrphi View Post
    Didn't happen earlier than Old English?
    Yes, you are right, of course. It must have happened before West- and North-Germanic languages split but after East-Germanic separated from Common Germanic because Gothic doesn't show this feature. For the purpose of this thread it seemed an unnecessary complication to me.

  19. #39
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    Yes, you are right, of course. It must have happened before West- and North-Germanic languages split but after East-Germanic separated from Common Germanic because Gothic doesn't show this feature. For the purpose of this thread it seemed an unnecessary complication to me.
    Ops I missed an "it" out of my post. Anyway, thanks for confirming. I didn't mean to go off track, just wanted to make sure I'd understood the 'ordering of events' so-to-speak!

  20. #40
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    Re: -ed past tense marker

    Greetings all

    http://forum4cdn.wordreference.com/i...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Scholiast http://forum4cdn.wordreference.com/i...post-right.png

    ...the Romance legacy languages tend to derive their conjugated future stems from the Latin Future Perfect, amerai > amaveris, &c.
    Do you have any source for this theory? I haven't found any. By contrast, the theory that the Romance future is derived from infinitive+present tense of habere and the conditional is derived from the infinitive+imperfect of habere (or, exceptionally, from infinitive+perfect tense of habere in modern Italian) can be found in every text book (example, example, example).
    Sorry berndf, I think this was D-I-Y philology on my part from years ago, based on the fact that both French and Italian conjugated futures tend to form themselves from stem+r+personal ending, irrespective of the conjugational system of the original Latin verb (fecero, vincero &c., as well as Fr. je dormirai, j'écouterai, where I detect no sign of the habere root. Indeed, I have seen or read somewhere, sorry for no immediate reference, a theory that ama-bo > ama + [ha]be-re).

    If I was swimming in waters too deep for me, once again my apologies.
    Last edited by Scholiast; 31st December 2012 at 4:37 PM. Reason: Clarification

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