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Thread: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

  1. #1
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    If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Suggestions:
    لو أنه لم يدرس، لما كان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو لم يدرس، فلا كان نجح في الإمتحان

    Also, the somewhat related:
    If he had studied, he would have passed the exam
    لو أنه درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان

  2. #2
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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by jmt356 View Post
    Suggestions:
    لو أنه لم يدرس، لما كان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو لم يدرس، فلا كان نجح في الإمتحان

    Also, the somewhat related:
    If he had studied, he would have passed the exam
    لو أنه درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان
    لو ذاكر/راجع دروسه لنجح في الامتحان
    إن كنت ريحاً فقد لاقيت إعصاراً

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Hi jmt356,

    You don't need to use the pluperfect for 'would have'. I understand the instinct to make the verb 'more' past to match the grammar of the conditional clause, but in Arabic, the simple ماضي covers the bases of all kinds of conditions. The idea of 'had studied' and 'would have passed' are indicated completely by the particles لو...لـَ in contrary-to-fact conditions, so you could just say:

    لو لم يذاكر، لما نجح في الامتحان

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by dkarjala View Post
    The idea of 'had studied' and 'would have passed' are indicated completely by the particles لو...لـَ in contrary-to-fact conditions, so you could just say:

    لو لم يذاكر، لما نجح في الامتحان
    Is لَما valid? I would have thought you just say لو لم يذاكر ما نجح.

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    The apodosis of conditionals with لو, as far as I know, must begin with لـ, whether negative or positive. The only thing you don't do is use للم*.

    Peruse these google results https://www.google.com/search?hl=ar&....1.-3BiFE83bTQ

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    I think you meant to write "la" and not "li".

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by jmt356 View Post
    Suggestions:
    لو أنه لم يدرس، لما كان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو لم يدرس، فلا كان نجح في الإمتحان

    Also, the somewhat related:
    If he had studied, he would have passed the exam
    لو أنه درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان
    or
    لو درس، لكان نجح في الإمتحان
    I hope you do not mind my saying so but your title is a bit confusing. Perhaps it is a case of American English vs British English.

    If he does n't study, he won't pass his exams.

    if he did 't study, he would not pass his exams.

    If he had not studied, he would not have passed his exams.

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Qureshpor, you're right in that the title of the thread is a mixed condition, but these are possible in real speech in the sense that one can switch from more vivid to more grammatically rigorous formulations for communication.

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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    If he hadn't studied, he wouldn't have passed.
    لو لم يكن قد ذاكر لما نجح
    لو لم يكن قد ذاكر ما نجح
    لو لم يكن قد ذاكر لم يكن قد نجح
    More idiomatically:
    لولا أنه ذاكر لما نجح / ما كان قد نجح
    If it wasn't for his studying he wouldn't have passed.

    Your answer for the related question is correct.
    اذكر الله

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    Re: MSA: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by dkarjala View Post
    The apodosis of conditionals with لو, as far as I know, must begin with لـ, whether negative or positive. The only thing you don't do is use للم*.
    I was quite surprised to find لَمَا but it seems it does exist. Thanks for this useful information. However, I don't think the apodosis of لو must always begin with لَ. See Wright vol. 2 §190 p.348D.

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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by ayed View Post
    لو ذاكر/راجع دروسه لنجح في الامتحان
    If I use ذاكر, would I need دروسه, or is دروسه only to be used if I use راجع?

    What does ذاكر mean? Is it Form III of ذكر (to remember)?

    Can you provide the حركات of ذاكر? I assume it is being conjugated in the perfect.

    Can you also provide the حركات for ل in لنجح? Is it لَ? Or لِ?

    Would these also be correct translations:
    If he had studied, he would have passed the exam:
    لو درس، لَنجح في الإمتحان

    If he had not studied, he would not have passed the exam:
    لو لم يدرسْ، لَما َنجح في الإمتحان

  12. #12
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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by jmt356 View Post
    If I use ذاكر, would I need دروسه, or is دروسه only to be used if I use راجع?

    What does ذاكر mean? Is it Form III of ذكر (to remember)?
    Since the Arabic درس means study in the sense of 'try to learn', it doesn't always feel right in the sense of 'practice and review learned material' like we use in English. Instead, you can use the verb ذاكَرَ 'to review/go over/try to remember', yes, form III of 'remember'.

    Can you provide the حركات of ذاكر? I assume it is being conjugated in the perfect.
    if you can't read them above, it's dhaakara, in the perfect, yes.

    Can you also provide the حركات for ل in لنجح? Is it لَ? Or لِ?
    It isn't the preposition 'for' but the 'asseverative' particle, and is voweled with fatHA 'la-najaHa'

    Would these also be correct translations:
    If he had studied, he would have passed the exam:
    لو درس، لَنجح في الإمتحان

    If he had not studied, he would not have passed the exam:
    لو لم يدرسْ، لَما َنجح في الإمتحان
    Those look great to me. As I discussed with my friend above, however, it seems the la- in the result clause is not a must.

  13. #13
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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    I read in Teach Yourself Arabic that if you use لو in the conditional clause, you must use لَ in the main clause.
    However, if you use إنْ or إذا in the conditional clause, then لَ should not be used in the main clause.

    لو and لَ should be used when the condition is unlikely or impossible; إنْ or إذا should be used when the condition is likely or possible.

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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by jmt356 View Post
    I read in Teach Yourself Arabic that if you use لو in the conditional clause, you must use لَ in the main clause.
    However, if you use إنْ or إذا in the conditional clause, then لَ should not be used in the main clause.

    لو and لَ should be used when the condition is unlikely or impossible; إنْ or إذا should be used when the condition is likely or possible.
    As I said above, that is what's taught in textbooks for Modern Standard. In practice, and in Classical, the la is not treated as canonical.

  15. #15
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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    As far as I know,
    Studied = دَرَسَ (Even in the context above).
    Revised = راجَعَ

    I am not sure if the usage of ذاكَرَ=Studied is a proper MSA!

  16. #16
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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    These dictionaries indicate otherwise. I'm curious - do you use درس in Jordanian dialect?



    1. ذاكر - مذاكرة :
      1 - ذاكره في الأمر : دخل معه في حديثه . 2 - ذاكر : درسه : درسه . ج
      المعجم: الرائد -

      مُذَاكرة :
      مصدر ذاكرَ : معاودة فهم الدروس وحفظها " مذاكرة جهريَّة ، - حريص على المذاكرة ".
      المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر -


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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by zBuilder View Post
    I am not sure if the usage of ذاكَرَ=Studied is a proper MSA!
    I think it existed in post-classical Arabic at least. I believe students would meet to memorize texts in an interactive way. If you search for "المذاكرة بين المحدثين" I think you'll find some more information.

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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Quote Originally Posted by dkarjala View Post
    These dictionaries indicate otherwise. I'm curious - do you use درس in Jordanian dialect?
    True, in Jordan we use "درس" .
    Quote Originally Posted by dkarjala View Post



    1. ذاكر - مذاكرة :
      1 - ذاكره في الأمر : دخل معه في حديثه . 2 - ذاكر : درسه : درسه . ج
      المعجم: الرائد -

      مُذَاكرة :
      مصدر ذاكرَ : معاودة فهم الدروس وحفظها " مذاكرة جهريَّة ، - حريص على المذاكرة ".
      المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر -

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Talha View Post
    I think it existed in post-classical Arabic at least. I believe students would meet to memorize texts in an interactive way. If you search for "المذاكرة بين المحدثين" I think you'll find some more information.
    True, although the usage is mostly related to religious texts as in "memorize" and not exactly "study" and I don't think it is accurate to be used in this context. Especially that "درس" on the other hand is the one used.

    And as for this:
    Since the Arabic درس means study in the sense of 'try to learn'
    It is inaccurate as well, "تعلَّمَ" is the term for "learned".


    It term (ذاكر) is not even defined in Google Translate .

  19. #19
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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    Ok - so what do you think about this definition from al-Ra'id

    ذاكر درسَه: درسه

    And how would you translate

    مذاكرة: معاودة فهم الدروس وحفظها

    And also, the maSdar in google translate is translated:

    http://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%...83%D8%B1%D8%A9

    So my question is, 1) do you think that the مصدر may mean 'study' even if the verb isn't used that way in the ماضي/مضارع in your opinion?

    Also, 2) how does it sound to you if you add 'lessons': يذاكر دروسه. Does your ear reject that as well? This is a discussion I've had more than once and I find it very interesting.

    Since the Arabic درس means study in the sense of 'try to learn' It is inaccurate as well, "تعلَّمَ" is the term for "learned".
    I didn't say درس means 'learn' I said it means "try to learn" - which is how I would define the English word 'study' also. محاولة التعلم

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    Re: If he didn't study, he would not have passed the exam

    What a mess.
    Can I point out that قرأ is a good word to use here? Even in English you can use the verb 'to read' to mean 'he is studying' and 'he studies'.
    اذكر الله

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