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Thread: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

  1. #1
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    自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    Hello. I'm having some trouble trying to understand the meaning of the following sentence. It is about the Japanese way of expressing things, like a linguistic text. I need to translate it in Italian, but..the thing is I don't really understand what it means so..
    This is the sentence.
    自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は、自分で決めたことなのに、『この度、結婚することになりました』『引っ越すことになりました』のように、『(ことに)する』と言わずに『なる』を用いて、いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったかのような表現します。
    Here is my attempt, but..it's like translating something without even knowing what I am saying!

    The expressions based on the interlocutor's prospective, seen from the speaker's point of view, like "this time it is decided I'm getting married" or "it is decided I'm moving", using "it is decided that..." instead of "I have decided that...", although it is something decided by the speaker, they (the expressions) can tell you whether this kind of situations have really occured naturally or not.

    It's not like I don't understand a single word, but it is the whole concept that I'm missing. I don't understand the point of the sentence. Anyone who wants to help?
    Thank you
    Last edited by utsubo; 21st January 2013 at 2:37 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    Umm...whichever, this 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は isn't a sufficient explanation. I didn't understand well, either. But I think the writer wants to say..

    (When you see me,) I (look to you) ended up getting married. I (look to you) ended up moving.

    >いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったかのような表現します。
    Ahh..the writer may want to mention that Japanese likes to express as if something happened naturally instead of saying 'Eventually, I ended up getting married!'..I'm not sure, and this is my understanding of what the writer wants to say. But remember, この度、結婚することになりました eventually implies 'Eventually, I ended up getting married!' but this Japanese, using naru, sounds like to avoid a very direct announcement.

    I humbly suggest you, I guess you need to keep 'kotoni suru' and 'naru' Japanese in the translation.. By using 'naru', not using 'kotoni suru', in Japanese you can express the situation as if it happened very naturally..
    If you have more questions, post again!

  3. #3
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    Re: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    I don't understand 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現 by itself either. Where did you see this expression? Anyway, based on the example sentences given, here is my take.

    This phrase is probably to be parsed as:
    [[自己の視点から見た]相手の発想]に基づく表現
    The kind of expressions under discussion is not just "based on the interlocutor's prospective" but thought [by the speaker] to be based on the interlocutor's prospective.

    Example:
    Person A is getting married. They are now reporting it to someone else, B. A thinks, "If I say to B that I am getting married, they would probably say, 'Oh, wonderful. Aが結婚することになったのか.'"

    In other words, A thinks ahead how B is likely to capture the event that A is about to report.
    Always give as much context as you think unnecessary. How do you like your lamb leg steak? — Medium, right leg!

  4. #4
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    Re: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    Just my two cents.

    He's talking about the ことになる construction. What he wants to say is:
    Ultimately it was your decision to take this action. But when you use "なる" instead of "する", it sounds/feels as if had happened naturally (or not really in your control). In other words, rather than the the actual meaning of the sentence, it changes how you feel about the situation.

    You can read more about this, just google for ”ことになる” or ”になる にする”. Here is what the 明鏡国語辞典 says:
    ことになる
    事柄の内容に自分の意向が及ばせないことを表す。
    (ア)自然に成り行きや状況、規則などによって、そう決まる意を表す。 「試験は二月初めに実施されることになっている。」
    (イ)筋道立てて考えた結果、必然的にそのように導かれる意を表す。 「それが事実ならば、二人は従姉妹(いとこ)同士ということになる」
    (ウ)もともとの趣旨とは関係なく、そう解釈される意を表す。 「そんなことをすると、彼を侮辱したことになる」
    (エ)口裏を合わせる形でそう取り決めている意を表す。 「表向きは始めて会うということになっている」
    (オ)習慣として定着している意を表す。 「代金は食べる前に払うことになっている」

    自己の視点から見た(to view from the point of view of oneself) 相手の発想(the aite's conception) に基づく表現。
    What I make of this is
    >> "ni naru" is an expression, based upon another person's point of view of how they think about the situation.
    What I don't get here is how this (ことになる) even involves an 相手... Or it means "ni naru is an expression, based upon one's point of view of how another person thinks about the situation", but I also don't see how this involves two persons.

    The only things I can think of that makes sense here would be: "The meaning of 'koto ni naru' derives from the idea of looking upon your situation objectively, ie not from your point of view.".

    The rest of the sentence is straight-forward:

    The main idea:
    自分で決めたことなのに,『なる』を用いて,いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったかのような表現です。

    And for example:"この度、結婚することになりました", "引っ越すことになりました" のように、『(ことに)する』と言わずに『なる』を用いる。
    Last edited by blutorange2; 21st January 2013 at 5:30 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    mmm ok, it makes sense! especially that

    Example:
    Person A is getting married. They are now reporting it to someone else, B. A thinks, "If I say to B that I am getting married, they would probably say, 'Oh, wonderful. Aが結婚することになったのか.'"
    Thanks a lot!
    although.. when I think I get it, there it comes the end of the sentence, where it says いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったのような表現です.
    Why is it there that か?? Shouldn't it be written without it? Like 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は, 自分で決めたことなのに, いかにも自然にそのような事態が起こったのような表現です. ?
    I mean, the whole point it's to state that this kind of sentence leaves a trace of "naturally happened" kind of attitude on the sentence, right? So, what is it with that "ka"? doesn't it sound like it's doubting about what it has just stated or what is trying to state?
    Last edited by utsubo; 21st January 2013 at 8:30 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: 自己の視点から見た相手の発想に基づく表現は

    ok, now i get it

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