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Thread: Gramatyka opisowa

  1. #21
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by LilianaB View Post
    (I still like dyskryptywizm more, phonetically).
    Oh, really? It sounds rough and un-Polish-like to me.

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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    It sounds very pleasant to me.

  3. #23
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by LilianaB View Post
    It sounds very pleasant to me.
    Well, from a phonetic point of view, 'd' and 'e' are sounds that are both frontal, as opposed to 'd' and 'y', the latter being a back sound. I'll leave it to you to determine which of these roll off the tongue better, Lil.

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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    My taste might be influenced by the word descriptive in English, or something else: after all I speak English about 90% of time. I thought it was dyscryptywizm -- I could have confused it with pozytywizm. I thought these words rhymed.

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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by LilianaB View Post
    My taste might be influenced by the word descriptive in English.
    Quote Originally Posted by dreamlike View Post
    Oh, really? It sounds rough and un-Polish-like to me.
    You both are correct. One is speaking from the perspective of
    source language agentivity, while the other recipient language agentivity. Both types are common processes in borrowing.
    Thank you both for helping me out in Polish. I appreciate it.

  6. #26
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Skatinginbc, I hope you will forgive me for not having read the thread you linked to, but I was unable to do it then. I've had a quick look at it.

    From my experience 'gramatyka opisowa' or less often 'gramatyka deskryptywna' means in Polish the type of grammar that describes synchronically a given language (and usually doesn't focus on evaluation). This translates into English as 'descriptive grammar'.

    Univeristies, especially their language departments, run courses called 'gramatyka opisowa języka xyz'. By definition this course focuses on describing the *grammar of a given language. So you can learn in it things like: native English speakers very often say 'There's many people in the streets.', and then see it contrasted with the prescriptive approach: although traditionally the sentence calls for the plural 'There are many people in the streets.' or in spoken French it is common to skip the first part of the negation: J'ai pas vu Pierre au cours aujourd'hui., etc.
    *most often it's modern

    Since Polish univeristies are quite autonomous in the choice of their syllabuses, the content of the courses really depends on the particular department. How the content itself is taught in practice is really up to the teacher who delivers the course in 'gramatyka opisowa języka xyz'. That is at least my experience.

    Going back to your questions:
    Am I correct to say that the reason opisowa follows the noun gramatyka is to specify a specific type or class, that is, not any grammar but “descriptive grammar”?
    By definition it is (especially that it is postpopsed).
    Can gramatyka opisowa mean “a survey of grammar”? If so, please analyze the syntax for me so that I can understand why it can be so .
    I think it is a survey of the grammar of a given language (in its modern form if we are talking about university courses). However, I am wondering if a survey of grammar can be a broader term, because it can also focus on elements that belong in other types of grammar.
    Last edited by Thomas1; 27th January 2013 at 8:46 AM. Reason: grammar
    Please correct my errors! Thanks.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1 View Post

    Univeristies, especially their language departments, run courses called 'gramatyka opisowa języka xyz'. By definition this course focuses on describing the *grammar of a given language. So you can learn in it things like: native English speakers very often say 'There's many people in the streets.', and then see it contrasted with the prescriptive approach: although traditionally the sentence calls for the plural 'There are many people in the streets.'
    Hi, Thomas.

    I take it that you were a student of English yourself, and you did participate in the course called 'Gramtyka opisowa'. I refuse to believe that what they'd been teaching you for two years is what is is the descriptive and prescripive approach, and how do they differ, by illustrating it with different examples.

    No, the course does not deal with that. The first part is 'Phonetics and phonology of English', and the second part is 'Syntax and morphology of English'.

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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Hi. I don't agree with you Thomas. The course Dreamlike is talking about usually does not deal with language comparison -- how people speak English in the streets of X town in England, or somewhere else with what the grammar prescribes. It is a highly specialized course which gives an introduction to the English phonology, morphology and syntax for linguists, including language teachers -- not for regular language learners. It usually does not include any grammatical exercises at all.

  9. #29
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Yes, I was an English student. Let me talk, however, about the French course, because I studied English much earlier, followed it with other languages and don't recall much of the syllabus.

    Of course we didn't do that for the whole course, but this is what has remained in my memory. I guess this is partly due to the fact that in other classes we often covered the same/similar subjects but from another angle. In one of the first classes we discussed the differences between the descriptive and prescriptive grammars, so the example I gave in my last post isn't that surprising. However, it was basically syntax and morphology with particular focus on the verb and noun phrases. It took up 'just' one year though. Anyway, what struck me the most in your course, Dreamlike, was that I, for one, don't recall any phonological/phonetical elements in mine.
    Last edited by Thomas1; 26th January 2013 at 8:21 PM.
    Please correct my errors! Thanks.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Well, I did have a phonetics course in mine.

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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1 View Post
    In one of the first classes we discussed the differences between the descriptive and prescriptive grammars, so the example I gave in my last post isn't that surprising. However, it was basically syntax and morphology with particular focus on the verb and noun phrases that we focused on. It took up 'just' one year though. Anyway, what struck me the most in your course, Dreamlike, was that I, for one, don't recall any phonological/phonetical elements in my course.
    The course Thomas took strikingly resembles the "Descriptive English Grammar" I took many years ago at a U.S. university, an introductory course for students working toward a graduate degree in English. My professor mentioned the descriptive-prescriptive contrast merely in one paragraph. And there was no dialectal comparison during the entire course. The one Dreamlike is taking at least covers variances between British and American English. Mine didn't. As Thomas pointed out, "descriptive grammar" is "a type of grammar that describes synchronically a given language". Free Dictionary defines “descriptive” as follows: “Of or relating to the study or the description of a language or a specific stage of a language, with emphasis on constructing a grammar without regard to historical development, comparison with other languages, or advocated norms for correct or proper usage. Clearly, a "descriptive" approach towards grammar concerns how the grammar is formulated, not how the grammar is presented (i.e., teaching methodology such as comparing different dialects or registers).



    That being said, I would like to reiterate my purpose of creating this thread. It is solely about the Polish language, not about how descriptive grammar should be taught or what the course should be called. I was confused by some posts in the English thread regarding the course “Gramatyka opisowa języka angielskiego” . Here are some examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by dreamlike View Post
    The thing is that in Polish there are two words -- the first one is an adjective derived from the noun 'description' which precedes the word 'grammar' in the Polish tittle. It means 'saying what somebody/something is like'. The second word is the very 'descriptive' (it differs only by a few letters from the English word, instead 'i' there is 'y' and instead 'v' there is 'w', and the ending is a tad idifferent) which carries the same meaning as the English word, namely -- #1 saying how language is actually used, without giving rules for how it should be used (OALD), #2 giving an account of something without judging.
    The Polish title uses the first word. It's complicated, as you can see. I don't know if I got the distinction across.
    Quote Originally Posted by lucas-sp View Post
    According to dreamlike, the word "descriptive" used in this title is:
    A) not the word used for "descriptive grammar" (as opposed to pre/proscriptive grammar or as a methodological field of linguistics)
    B) modifying "course" and not "grammar" (it is a "descriptive course/course giving a general description" of grammar, not a course about "descriptive grammar")
    It's clear that "Survey of X" would be said in English when "Descriptive X" would be said in Polish.
    Quote Originally Posted by dreamlike View Post
    Yes, Lucas, thank you, at least one person that seems to share my reasoning. That's the point I was trying to make...

    And so a conclusion was made:

    Quote Originally Posted by lucas-sp View Post
    the adjective "descriptive" in English doesn't work in general, and really doesn't work in this specific case, as an adjective meaning "providing a general overview of." So we wouldn't use "Descriptive Mesoamerican Archaeology" as the title of a course; we would say "Comprehensive Survey of Mesoamerican Archaeology." ....To me, you (Dreamlike) made its meaning and structure perfectly clear, particularly when you mentioned that the word for "descriptive" in this title is not the same as the word for "descriptive" in the concept "descriptive grammar."


    Is it true that Polish “Descriptive X” = English “Survey of X”?
    Deskriptivna Statistikameans “survey of statistics” instead of “descriptive statistics”?

    Gramatyka deskryptywna (or opisowa) means “survey of grammar” instead of “descriptive grammar”?
    Last edited by Skatinginbc; 27th January 2013 at 2:02 AM.

  12. #32
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas1 View Post
    Anyway, what struck me the most in your course, Dreamlike, was that I, for one, don't recall any phonological/phonetical elements in mine.
    Lucky you! These are a though nut to cruck, and I wish it hadn't formed part of my course. We've dealt with that during the first semester, and will continue to do so for the whole second semester. Only in the second year will we move to syntax and morphology, which might prove even more difficult to handle.

    Anyway, it's interesting to see how these courses differ depending on the university.

  13. #33
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Yes, I agree with Dreamlike. At many European universities (not only in Poland) it used to be a course that Dreamlike describes -- phonology, morphology and syntax -- a highly theoretical course. I think it is completely different than the course with a similar title in the US. There is no productive way to determine why they called the course this way in certain countries, so the only way might be just to live with it.

  14. #34
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Quote Originally Posted by Skatinginbc View Post
    Is it true that Polish “Descriptive X” = English “Survey of X”?
    no, that's wrong: “Survey of X” would be in polish something like “Przegląd X”; i don't know the nuances of lecture's names but for me “Descriptive grammar” would rather mean Gramatyka opisowa/deskryptywna in the sense of sychronical description of grammar and not “Description of grammar” (Opis gramatyki) or “Survey of grammar” (Przegląd gramatyki). i think we should treat other uses and understanding of this compound as a wrong custom or tradition.
    proszę o poprawianie błędów w moich wypowiedziach / please correct any mistakes in my utterances

  15. #35
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    Re: Gramatyka opisowa

    Yes, synchronic as opposed to diachronic (or historical), not descriptive as opposed to prescriptive.

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