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Thread: Hold, keep, save...

  1. #1
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    Hold, keep, save...

    These three verbs might refer to some underlying concept. How do you translate them? What are some derivations based on them?

    Dutch:
    - hold: houden (in je hand), hold in your hand
    - keep : houden, behouden [houding, attitude ]> bewaren (save, preserve, FRE garder)
    - save: redden [a person from drowning, something in danger] (computer: opslaan)
    Last edited by ThomasK; 16th February 2013 at 2:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Dutch:
    - hold: houden (in je hand), hold in your hand
    - keep : houden, behouden [houding, attitude ]> bewaren (save)
    These are tricky words to translate into Portuguese. We have a range of words that can translate each of those, but the right one depends on the context. There is no general one-to-one correspondence with the English words. Some possibilities:

    to hold (in one's hand): segurar, apertar, guardar, ter
    to keep: guardar, manter, ter, salvar

    As for "to save" a computer file, there are a few possible interchangeable choices, with some variation between Portugal and Brazil: guardar, salvar, and gravar are the most common, as discussed in this thread.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  3. #3
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    That is what I was afraid of. I have already changed my question a little, making it a little more precise. There is also a link with 'to protect' of course: to guard, bewaken in Dutch, also beschermen, whereas that sounds quite different from houden (mainly keeping in Dutch).

    Do you by the way see quite different meanings in various derivations based on one verb? With us houding, attitude, is not so clearly linked with houden, except perhaps via zich houden, se tenir (to hold oneself ???)

  4. #4
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    In Greek:

    To hold: «Κρατάω/κρατώ» [kra'ta.o] (uncontracted) / [kra'to] (contracted) < ancient v. «κρατέω/κρατῶ» kra'tĕō (uncontracted) / kra'tō (contracted) --> anc. meaning, to rule, get possession of, control (> Demo-cracy), in MG, to hold, keep in the hand; PIE base *kar-/*ker-, hard (cf. Skt. क्रतु (kratu), might; Gr. «κράτος» 'kratŏs, strength, might (in MG also, the sovereign political entity = state), adj. «κρατύς» kra'tŭs (found only in masc. form), strong, mighty; Proto-Germanic *hardu- > Ger. hart, Eng./Dutch hard)
    To keep (save, preserve):
    1/ «Διατηρώ» [ði.ati'ro] < ancient v. «διατηρέω/διατηρῶ» dĭatē'rĕō (uncontracted) / dĭatē'rō (contracted) --> ancient meaning, to watch closely, observe, in MG, to maintain, preserve, keep; compound, prefix and preposition «διὰ» di'ằ --> through, throughout (PIE *duwo-, two) + v. «τηρέω/τηρῶ» tē'rĕō (uncontracted) / tē'rō (contracted) --> to watch over, guard, retain; the ancient meaning of «τηρῶ» --> to watch over, has survived in some rural regilolects (e.g. in the dialect of the Sarakatsani people): «τηράω» [ti'rao] --> to watch over (the herd, crop etc) with obscure etymology.
    2/ «Φυλάσσω» [fi'laso] (coll. «φυλάγω» [fi'laɣo] & «φυλάω» [fi'la.o]) < ancient v. «φυλάσσω» pʰŭ'lassō & «φυλάττω» pʰŭ'lattō --> to watch, guard, defend, preserve, maintain, cherish (with obscure etymology).
    3/ «Διαφυλάσω» [ði.afi'laso] < ancient v. «διαφυλάσσω» dĭapʰŭ'lassō & «διαφυλάττω» dĭapʰŭ'lattō --> to observe closely, watch closely (AG), to preserve, safeguard (MG).
    To save:
    1/ «Σώζω» ['sozo] < ancient «σῴζω» 'sōzō & «σώιζω» 'sōizō --> to save, keep safe, with obscure etymology (some philologists suggest from PIE *tēw-, to swell* (cf. Skt. तवीति (taviiti), to be strong; OCS тѹръ (turŭ), aurochs).
    2/ «Διασώζω» [ði.a'sozo] < ancient «διασῴζω» dĭa'sōzō --> to preserve through danger, preserve, maintain.

    *the evolution of the meaning is probably:
    To be swollen = to be well-fed/fat > to be strong/safe (for persons and animals)
    Last edited by apmoy70; 16th February 2013 at 5:11 PM.
    Les Grecs sont étonnants dans l'adversité - François Pouqueville

  5. #5
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Finnish

    to hold:
    pitää

    • like the French tenir (à), it can also mean "to like someone"
    • it can also mean "to regard something as X"

    to keep:
    säilyttää

    • säilyä = "to be preserved", säilyke = "canned food", säiliö = "tank"

    to save:
    pelastaa (to rescue)
    • pelastuslaitos = "rescue department"

    säästää (to spare)

    • säästöpossu = "piggy bank"

    tallentaa (computer)
    • talteen (adverb) = "into a state/place of preservation", tallella/tallessa (adverb) = "in a state/place of preservation"
    -pa, -pä | Retorinen kysymys | Mitäpä Kaarina osaisi. (= Kaarina ei osaa mitään.)

  6. #6
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Thanks a lot for these interesting contributions!

    @Apmoy: /krato/ as a basic metaphor for ruling... Interesting! -- /tirao/ : do I recognize 'tyrant' in that word ? -- /sotèr/ is quite well-known in Christian doctrine, I believe, Saviour...

    @Määränpää:
    - holding: well, we also have 'houden van' (hold of ???) as the translation of loving nowadays ! --- and 'houden voor' (hold for...) can also mean consider !!!
    - keep...: interesting derivations - we also have conserve[blik] (preservation tin, literally) in Belgian Dutch
    - to save: we also have sparen (spaarvarken, piggy bank)
    - tallentaa: how you use it when referrring to 'to save' then? (How do you translate: 'I have saved it'? Do you say something like : 'I have put it tallentaa/ tallella' or something the like? Can you use it in non-digital contexts as well ?

  7. #7
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    tallentaa: how you use it when referrring to 'to save' then? (How do you translate: 'I have saved it'? Do you say something like : 'I have put it tallentaa/ tallella' or something the like? Can you use it in non-digital contexts as well ?
    The verb tallentaa is exclusively digital. A similar verb, tallettaa, means "to deposit". Because they are so technical, I think they might be neologisms formed from the adverbs.

    For concrete small objects, I would use the adverbs: laittaa talteen ("to put talteen", dynamic) or pitää tallessa ("to keep tallessa", static). The adverb behaves like a noun, but it has only three cases and doesn't even have the nominative case. Some of our adverbs are like this.

    P.S. I forgot to add that pitää ("to hold") often means "to keep", and säilyttää is more like "to preserve".
    Last edited by Määränpää; 16th February 2013 at 9:06 PM.
    -pa, -pä | Retorinen kysymys | Mitäpä Kaarina osaisi. (= Kaarina ei osaa mitään.)

  8. #8
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    In Arabic:

    to hold: أمسك /amsak/

    to keep: احتفظ /eħtafaẓ/ - To keep (going): واصل /waaṣal/

    to save: حفظ /ħafaẓ/

    to preserve: حافظ /ħaafaẓ/

  9. #9
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    magyar

    hold = tart
    keep = megtart (meg- works like Dutch be-).i.e. perfect verb
    preserve = tartósít, tank > tartály
    save = ment, megment, both imperfect and perfect verb possible
    [ɒkinɛk humorɒ vɒn, mindɛnˤtud, ɒkinɛk niŋʧ, mindɛnrɛ ke.pɛʃ]

  10. #10
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    @AhmedK : could you give me some sentences where the verbs are used with objects?

    @Encolpius: So you can express a lot of those meanings with one root, tart-? Do you have lots of derivations then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Määränpää View Post
    I forgot to add that pitää ("to hold") often means "to keep", and säilyttää is more like "to preserve".
    Could you illustrate that with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?
    Last edited by ThomasK; 17th February 2013 at 9:11 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    I forgot to add that pitää ("to hold") often means "to keep", and säilyttää is more like "to preserve".
    Could you illustrate that with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?
    1.) Nämä ihmiset pitävät lupauksensa. ("These people keep their promises.")
    2.) Pidän vaimoni kuvaa työpöydälläni. ("I keep a picture of my wife on my desk.")
    3.) Säilytän vanhoja tavaroitani ullakolla. ("I keep my old things in the attic.")
    4.) Haluan, että tämä puisto säilytetään. ("I want this park to be preserved.")
    -pa, -pä | Retorinen kysymys | Mitäpä Kaarina osaisi. (= Kaarina ei osaa mitään.)

  12. #12
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Great, that would be 'houden' (although...), 'bewaren' and 'bewaren' in Dutch.

  13. #13
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    @Encolpius: So you can express a lot of those meanings with one root, tart-? Do you have lots of derivations then?
    Could you illustrate that with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?
    some more: tartalék [reserve, spare], tartalom [content], tartomány [province], tartozik [to owe], tartóztat [to detain]...
    [ɒkinɛk humorɒ vɒn, mindɛnˤtud, ɒkinɛk niŋʧ, mindɛnrɛ ke.pɛʃ]

  14. #14
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    That seems impressive. ...I could imagine a link with Dutch 'houden' (German 'halten') as in 'inhoud' (content), 'voorbehoud' (reserve, fig.), 'vasthouden' (detain), which has a very broad meaning as well, I now come think, as in 'houden van' (to love: hold-of), 'houden voor' (to take x as), '[zich] verhouden tot' (to relate to...), 'houding' (attitude), etc.
    Last edited by ThomasK; 17th February 2013 at 5:06 PM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    I think Hungarian has been influenced by Germanic, German.
    [ɒkinɛk humorɒ vɒn, mindɛnˤtud, ɒkinɛk niŋʧ, mindɛnrɛ ke.pɛʃ]

  16. #16
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    But then even as far as derivations are concerned, you mean?

  17. #17
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Yes, I think even that influenced Hungarian.
    But Czech: držet [to hold] > nádrž [cotainer], zadržet [to arrest], so maybe it's a coincidence, South Slavic država [province, country]...
    [ɒkinɛk humorɒ vɒn, mindɛnˤtud, ɒkinɛk niŋʧ, mindɛnrɛ ke.pɛʃ]

  18. #18
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Hold, keep, save...


    pidi(hold), kai pidi (hand hold), kai il pidi(hand in hold / hold in your hand)

    vai (keep) Kai il vaith-iru (hand in keep/ Keep it in your hand)

    Kaapaatru (Kaappu- To protect + aatru- do/act) God save us - Iraivaa emmai kaapaatru

  19. #19
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    How about saving, keeping, storing, Aruniyan?

  20. #20
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    Re: Hold, keep, save...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    That is what I was afraid of. I have already changed my question a little, making it a little more precise.
    After giving it some more thought, I've narrowed down the typical translations:

    to hold (in one's hand): segurar
    to keep (an attitude): manter, though we'd be more likely to use a copula to speak of attitudes: to be, to become, to stay...
    to have: ter (this one can often cover both meanings above)
    to save, to preserve, to guard, to maintain: manter (+salvar, preservar, guardar). Manter comes from mão (hand) + ter ("to hold" in Old Portuguese and Latin). It's a cognate of French maintenir.
    to save (a computer file): guardar, gravar (these mostly in Portugal), salvar (mostly in Brazil)
    to safeguard: salvaguardar
    to spare: poupar (+guardar, salvar)
    to store: armazenar
    to squeeze: apertar
    to arrest, to detain: prender, deter
    to protect: proteger (+guardar)
    to hold (something) tight, to hold down: segurar (+apertar, prender)
    to tie (something) down: amarrar (+prender)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasK View Post
    Do you by the way see quite different meanings in various derivations based on one verb? With us houding, attitude, is not so clearly linked with houden, except perhaps via zich houden, se tenir (to hold oneself ???)
    Well, there's seguro, insurance, and segurança, security or safety. I can't think of any other nontrivial derivations right now.
    Last edited by Outsider; 17th February 2013 at 5:52 PM.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

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