Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    190

    Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    I saw an article about how in the next US census, Portuguese people will be considered Hispanic. Of course this upsets some Portuguese nationals, but Roman Hispania included modern Portugal so from an analytical point view this makes sense. I know there is considerable history behind this; in the middle ages Hispania, España and Espanha were geographic terms only and various Iberian kingdoms including Portugal were known as "little Spains." At what point did this change so that Portugal was no longer "Hispanic"? Was it the merged kingdoms of Leon-Castile and crown of Aragon taking the name? The failure of the Iberian union?
    Last edited by killerbee256; 2nd March 2013 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    New York, NY, USA
    Native language
    Norwegian
    Posts
    1,179

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    It is more to the point of the failure of the U.S. census system! As an international in New York City, I can give you many examples of this. I have two friends from Brazil - one of them is white, the one other black. They both have residency in the U.S., but one of them was advised to put down 'African-American' and the other 'Hispanic' on the census. My good friend Sami was reprimanded for jokingly checking 'African-American' on the form, although his family is from Egypt, and therefore he could easily justify both claims. The couple Ranjit (from Detroit, his parents are Indian) and Nayma (from Pakistan) were advised to put (respectively) 'South-East Asian' and 'Middle Eastern', although the speak the same language (Hindi-Urdu). On the other hand, Manny (his real name is Manuel and is born in Madrid), was told he was 'White', and not 'Hispanic', because he was from Europe!

    The U.S. census is really not the best way to determine these things!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Maybe we can actually address killerbee's question, which was not about the US Census?
    Quote Originally Posted by killerbee256 View Post
    At what point did this change so that Portugal was no longer "Hispanic"?
    This Wikipedia article seems to provide the answer:
    Hasta finales del siglo XVII, inicios del siglo XVIII, todos los pueblos de la península ibérica se consideraban españoles [...]
    Con dificultad los portugueses se sintieron obligados a dejar de llamarse también españoles, a fin de no ser tomados por castellanos, a medida que se desarrollaba la castellanización de otros reinos de la Hispania.
    As for English usage, the term Hispanic has apparently not been in continuous use; the OED gives a first citation from 1972, where it refers to Spanish-speaking immigrants, especially those from Latin America, living in the US. The status of Brazilians in the US is not entirely clear to me; for official purposes like the census, a decision has to be made, and I suspect that the Portuguese problem is an extension of the Brazilian question. In any case, if they do decide to enlarge the definition of Hispanic in this way, it will not necessarily catch on in everyday usage, and if it does, it won't be because people recognize the historical reference to Roman Hispania(e). Personally, if I ever needed an adjectival form of Hispania, I would not use Hispanic, but something else, like Hispanian.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    190

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnPrep View Post
    In any case, if they do decide to enlarge the definition of Hispanic in this way, it will not necessarily catch on in everyday usage, and if it does, it won't be because people recognize the historical reference to Roman Hispania(e). Personally, if I ever needed an adjectival form of Hispania, I would not use Hispanic, but something else, like Hispanian.
    Thank you, I should check other languages on wikipedia more often. Honestly if I worked for the census I would have chosen Latino instead of Hispanic as it uncontroversially includes the Spanish, Portuguese and all of Latin America, thought that has it's own problems because it can also include Italians, French and Romanians.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    For the most recent census, the terms Hispanic, Latino, and Spanish were considered to be interchangeable when referring to ethnic origin. In other words, the option was consistently offered as "Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin". But then people were asked to specify a more specific origin (e.g. Spaniard).

    And of course everyone is allowed to identify with whatever group or groups they wish, apparently just like in the Soviet Union...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Native language
    French (France)
    Posts
    3,243

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Are you talking about the US, or France?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by killerbee256 View Post
    Thank you, I should check other languages on wikipedia more often. Honestly if I worked for the census I would have chosen Latino instead of Hispanic as it uncontroversially includes the Spanish, Portuguese and all of Latin America, thought that has it's own problems because it can also include Italians, French and Romanians.
    The U.S. census doesn't have a separate category for Hispanics; rather, there is one category termed "Hispanic/Latino/Spanish". If Portuguese and Brazilians were to be added to this they would need to add a ".../Portuguese" to the category. And Latino is defined as "having an origin in Latin America", so by this definition French, Italian, etc. would be excluded.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    Are you talking about the US, or France?
    The US, of course. The French census does not use English terms.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Native language
    French (France)
    Posts
    3,243

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    So who are these people that are "advising" people in no. 2?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by fdb View Post
    So who are these people that are "advising" people in no. 2?
    That is not an etymology/language question... Maybe you can ask it in Culture Café.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Geneva
    Native language
    German (Germany)
    Age
    55
    Posts
    20,100

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Moderator note: Can we please concentrate on the original question when "Hispanic" ceased to include Portugal. Discussion of the US census system is beyond the scope of this forum.
    Last edited by berndf; 17th March 2013 at 2:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by berndf View Post
    the original question when "Hispanic" ceased to include Portugal.
    It seems as though the question is backwards. CapnPrep has provided above a source according to which:

    [...] the OED gives a first citation from 1972, where it refers to Spanish-speaking immigrants, especially those from Latin America, living in the US.
    If so, then "Hispanic" originally did not include Portuguese or Brazilians.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    190

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    It's debatable if hispanic was meant to include Brazil or not, as hispanic is used as a regional sudonym for latino, which refers to all Latin Americans. As I'd like to note many Americans, to my great annoyance, don't know that Brazilian don't speak Spanish. As for Portugal the Spanish wiki article says the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish after the failure of the Iberian union.
    Last edited by killerbee256; 9th March 2013 at 7:11 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Native language
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    Age
    24
    Posts
    1,532

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    I've always understood Hispanic as Spanish, while Iberian meaning Spain + Portugal + Gibraltar, and maybe Andorra too - as in "Iberian Peninsula".
    "Ĉokolado". Do you know how to say "chócoleit" in "Espanis"?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    If so, then "Hispanic" originally did not include Portuguese or Brazilians.
    That is apparently true for the English word Hispanic, but there are older terms like Hispanical that may have been used differently. Also, it was clear that killer's question was not limited to English usage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Youngfun View Post
    as in "Iberian Peninsula".
    Also known as... the Hispanic Peninsula.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ciudad del paraíso
    Native language
    Spanish-Spain
    Age
    55
    Posts
    1,982

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Original question:

    At what point did this change so that Portugal was no longer "Hispanic"?

    Concerning English (or American English) usage, I cannot make any contributions.

    Concerning Portuguese official stance and the words "Spain", "Spanish", CapnPrep (message #3) gave the answer. As Stanley G. Payne says (my poor translation)

    As far as I know, the last important occasion when Portuguese Crown questioned the use by Madrid rulers of the expressions "Corona de España" o "Monarquía de España" was in times of the Treaty of Utrecht in 1714”.

    Concerning "Hispanoamérica", "hispanoamericano", "hispánico", and Spanish usage, the "Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas" (RAE) says:

    Hispanoamérica. Nombre que recibe el conjunto de países americanos de lengua española [...] hispanoamericano se refiere estrictamente a lo perteneciente o relativo a la América española y no incluye, por tanto, lo perteneciente o relativo a España.
    Iberoamérica. Nombre que recibe el conjunto de países americanos que formaron parte de los reinos de España y Portugal [...] iberoamericano [...] en ocasiones incluye también en su designación lo perteneciente o relativo a España y Portugal.

    And the "Diccionario de la Real Academia Española" says
    hispánico, ca.
    1. Perteneciente o relativo a la antigua Hispania o a los pueblos que formaron parte de ella.
    2. Perteneciente o relativo a España y a los países y culturas de habla española.

    So, calling "Hispanic" to present Portuguese people is not standard Spanish usage (nor standard Portuguese usage, as far as I know).

    It is only acceptable if you are considering things from a historical point of view, or you want to stress the links between both peoples (but then "ibérico" is the preferred word).

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Pekino, Ĉinujo
    Native language
    Chinese/Italian - bilingual
    Age
    24
    Posts
    1,532

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnPrep View Post
    Also known as... the Hispanic Peninsula.
    Not in Italy. We only call it Penisola Iberica.
    "Ĉokolado". Do you know how to say "chócoleit" in "Espanis"?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    France
    Native language
    AmE
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,588

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by Youngfun View Post
    Not in Italy. We only call it Penisola Iberica.
    Have you checked? I'm not saying that Penisola Ispanica is commonly used today (in Italian, or in English, Spanish, …) but some authors use it in historical or academic contexts. And some others seem to prefer it for some personal political agenda (see here, for example).

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Native language
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Posts
    28,006

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by killerbee256 View Post
    As for Portugal the Spanish wiki article says the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish after the failure of the Iberian union.
    A bold claim for which I doubt there is any clear evidence. Again I feel that your question is backwards. Rather than asking when the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish, you would do better to ask when the Castillians, the Catalans, the Basques, etc., began to think of themselves as "Spanish".

    But I don't think you'll find evidence concerning either question in the history of the word "Hispanic". The histories of "Spain" and "Spanish" are likely to be more helpful in that regard.
    Deuparth gwaith yw ei ddechrau.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    190

    Re: Hispania, Hispanic, España and Espanha

    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    A bold claim for which I doubt there is any clear evidence. Again I feel that your question is backwards. Rather than asking when the Portuguese began to think of themselves as being different from the Spanish, you would do better to ask when the Castillians, the Catalans, the Basques, etc., began to think of themselves as "Spanish".
    Let me make myself clear I don't mean the modern meaning of the term "Spanish" I was referring to pre 1492, before the Castillian kings hijacked the term. When it was still thought of as a geographic term, when Portugal was just one of the "little spains." I'd have to do some research but I think Castillians, Catalans and Portuguese all thought of themselves as "Spanish" from Roman times, thought as I said this was long before Castillians politicized it. The situation in Italy is similar, as it was broken into smaller political units after the eastern Romans lost control of the region and the term "Italian" was purely geographical and for that matter there are areas/people in Italy that dislike being called "Italian" the same way Portuguese and various independence movements in Spain dislike "Spanish"!
    Last edited by killerbee256; 9th March 2013 at 9:08 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •