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Thread: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

  1. #21
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    But surely the whole point of the text is to contrast the family history of the Sabahs with that of other, more recently-arrived, Jewish people living in the UK.

    It's not so much a question of Sephardic or non-Sephardic origins: it's the difference between (the shared experiences of) people who have lived in the UK for over 400 years (before even 'Great Britain' came into being) and the people who arrived in the 1930s and 40s many of whom were from Eastern Europe, spoke Yiddish, ate bagels, etc.

    syd

  2. #22
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by cirrus View Post
    Sorry I disagree. It's not translated at all. We are all speculating about a fragment of text with bits of yiddish. There is not attempt at translation: shtetl, lokshen, knish and bagel are all yiddish words and all of them have their roots in Eastern Europe.

    Whether Sabah is a Jewish family name is purely a speculative hunch. To me it sounds distinctly Arabic.
    Perdón por no aclarar. La sintaxis es lo que es puro Yiddish. Se adoptó algo al ingl;es y la regla se llama "Yiddish inversion" y así se usa.
    Saludos.

  3. #23
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by duvija View Post
    Perdón por no aclarar. La sintaxis es lo que es puro Yiddish. Se adoptó algo al ingl;es y la regla se llama "Yiddish inversion" y así se usa.
    Ah, yo tampoco lo entendía. Así que es la frase not for the Sabahs this Yiddish lo que te suena a una construcción habitual en yiddish traducida literalmente, ¿no?
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. (Bertrand Russell, 1872-1970)

  4. #24
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurrezko View Post
    Ah, yo tampoco lo entendía. Así que es la frase not for the Sabahs this Yiddish lo que te suena a una construcción habitual en yiddish traducida literalmente, ¿no?
    No necesariamente. Esta construcción se emplea en Inglaterra, hasta en contextos ajenos a lo relacionado con los judíos o el yiddish. En el sexto párrafo de esto tenéis un ejemplo: Not for him the endless socialising of office lunches.

    Otro ejemplo, encontrado en el duodécimo párrafo de este artículo parecido en el periódico inglés "The Daily Mail": Not for him the 'look at me' behaviour of his friend, tv presenter Jonathan Ross
    Last edited by sound shift; 8th March 2013 at 7:09 PM.
    It's the short words that get you.

  5. #25
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Si quieren, pueden mirar esto. Y muchísimo más. Y más que nada, esto, porque Adele Goldberg usa un buen apoyo teórico (Construction grammar) para este tema. Cuando yo trabaj'e en eso, le agregué 'entonación' a esas construcciones.
    Pueden poner en Google "Yiddish movement linguistics" y tienen chorradas de información.
    Last edited by duvija; 8th March 2013 at 7:21 PM.
    Saludos.

  6. #26
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Duvija, es verdad que el vínculo, el Free Dictionary, habla de un fenómeno llamado "Yiddish Movement", pero el Free Dictionary describe la situación en Estados Unidos. El texto citado en el post no. 1 trata de una situación inglesa, por lo que es muy probable que su autor sea inglés*; hay que tener en cuenta que el inglés de Inglaterra apenas ha sido influenciado por el yiddish, a diferencia del inglés americano. Yo mismo empleo el tipo de construcciones que es tema de este hilo, aunque no hay nada que me vincule a la comunidad judía, ni viven muchos judíos en este país. La construcción es británica.

    * @ veritorotbard: ¿Nos puedes decir de qué nacionalidad es el autor del texto, por favor?
    Last edited by sound shift; 8th March 2013 at 7:38 PM.
    It's the short words that get you.

  7. #27
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by veritorotbard View Post
    Georgina’s family had been English since 1656, when Oliver Cromwell had reversed a banishment of 366 years and officially allowed the Jews to resettle in England. Rupert’s ancestry was similar; not for the Sabahs this Yiddish; these shtetl knishes and lokshen and bagels.
    Quote Originally Posted by SydLexia View Post
    But surely the whole point of the text is to contrast the family history of the Sabahs with that of other, more recently-arrived, Jewish people living in the UK.

    It's not so much a question of Sephardic or non-Sephardic origins: it's the difference between (the shared experiences of) people who have lived in the UK for over 400 years (before even 'Great Britain' came into being) and the people who arrived in the 1930s and 40s many of whom were from Eastern Europe, spoke Yiddish, ate bagels, etc.
    I think SydLexia is exactly right and a lot of others are missing the point. Most likely Rupert was a member or a relative of the Sabah family, a Jewish family that was unusual among Jewish families in having lived in England for centuries, spoken English for centuries, and thus having a background quite distinct from the one that was much more common among 20th century Jews, which included use of the Yiddish language and the mentioned food items.

    A simpler sentence with the syntax under discussion:
    John had a lot of money; not for John this taking a bus everywhere, eating all meals at home, wearing the same clothes forever.
    With more usual syntax:
    John had a lot of money; taking a bus everywhere, eating all meals at home, wearing the same clothes forever were not for John.
    ("were not for John" means "were not things that John would want to do".)

    I have no idea whether Duvija is correct that the former syntax is typical of Yiddish. But I totally agree with sound shift that it is commonly used in English writing that no one would consider to be influenced by a foreign language. "La construcción es británica."

  8. #28
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Opino que no se intenta traducir nada sino reproducir su forma de hablar con su acento y sintaxis. Sabahs puede referirse a un nombre hebreo genérico para los abuelos varones, es decir, que el yiddish no era para la gente de edad, pues su idioma era el hebreo.

  9. #29
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar7 View Post
    Opino que no se intenta traducir nada sino reproducir su forma de hablar con su acento y sintaxis. Sabahs puede referirse a un nombre hebreo genérico para los abuelos varones, es decir, que el yiddish no era para la gente de edad, pues su idioma era el hebreo.
    El Yiddish existe desde los siglos XI o XII (hasta en obras de teatro, confirmadas), o sea que por el siglo XVI, yo no me atrevo a decir que todos hablaban hebreo.
    Saludos.

  10. #30
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Sería bueno que veritorotbard nos explicara de qué época son los Sabahs. No intento pontificar, solo abrir la mente para tratar de resolver este acertijo. En Wiki acabo de encontar esto sobre la historia de los judíos en Inglaterra: "Interrmarriage outside the community was uncommon. however, the arrival of East European Jews after 1880 caused a split between the older, assimilated, middle-class Anglicized Jews, in the much poorer new immigrants who spoke Yiddish".

  11. #31
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Yiddish inversion to my mind is a red herring and pushing it too far. There's not sufficient text to confirm it one way or another - we're looking at half a sentence. I notice elsewhere people are speculating whether European Jews spoke Hebrew in the 19C. If they did it wasn't their first language. A parallel might be Catholic congregations' grasp of Latin before Vatican 2. It had a familiar ring but outside liturgy and serious religious study it was effectively a dead language. I am going off topic here but Hebrew's mother tongue revival is a unique phenomenon. Imagine a theoretical new country settling on Latin as its lingua franca.
    The older I get, the less I realise I know

  12. #32
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by duvija View Post
    Me intriga. ¿Será elogio o desprecio? Usan Yiddish como si fuera etnia y tradición, aunque solamente el lenguaje se llama así.
    It must be remembered that Yiddish is basically a Germanic language and is not the same as Hebrew. Non-European Jews such as African and Indian Jews as well as many Southern and Western European Jews never had any contact with any Germanic languages (and never ate bagels either).

    In the context of Jews in the UK the pages of the 'Spanish and Portuguese Jews' Congregation' are very interesting. See: http://www.sandp.org/history.html

    From the original text we can deduce that Georgina feels that she, her family and Rupert's family (the Sabahs) are not the same type of people as these newly-arrived immigrants with their language (this Yiddish) and their social and culinary culture (these bagels). Note also that 'newly-arrived' may be relative in the context.

    As far as 'desprecio' goes: for her it will be basically a question of class.

    It is interesting to see that Wikipedia says about the early life of Benjamin Disraeli, twice Prime Minister of Great Britain:

    Benjamin Disraeli was born on 21 December 1804 at Bedford Row London. Disraeli's parents were Jews; all his grandparents and great grandparents were born in Italy, and the family arrived in England, from Venice, in 1748. He claimed his family ties to the Spanish and Portuguese congregation allowed him to claim Iberian descent. One modern historian has seen him as essentially a marrano. Glassman argues that in order to situate his status on a par with England's ruling elite, Disraeli made use of the well-established gossip of the superiority of Sephardic Jews from Iberia.
    So, yes, Yiddish is being used as an indicator of "etnia y tradición" and no, there is no 'Yiddish inversion' in the original text.

    syd
    Last edited by SydLexia; 11th March 2013 at 10:23 AM.

  13. #33
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    Quote Originally Posted by duvija View Post
    Se adoptó algo al inglés y la regla se llama "Yiddish inversion" y así se usa.
    Sí existe el "Yiddish inversión", pero aquí se trata de una inversión tradicional, común en la poesía, como en estos versos de Robert Louis Stevenson y T.S. Eliot:

    Death grimly sided with the foe,
    And smote each leaden hero low.
    Proudly they perished one by one:
    The dread Pea-cannon's work was done!
    O not for them the tears we shed,
    Consigned to their congenial lead;

    Not for me the martyrdom, the ecstasy of thought and prayer, Not for me the ultimate vision.
    saludos

  14. #34
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    Re: Not for the Sabahs this Yiddish

    El "Yiddish Movement", incluye la negación al principio.
    De acuerdo: el texto se refiere a la cultura de los 'nuevos pobres' opuesta a la de los ya asimilados.

    Quote Originally Posted by aztlaniano View Post
    Sí existe el "Yiddish inversión", pero aquí se trata de una inversión tradicional, común en la poesía, como en estos versos de Robert Louis Stevenson y T.S. Eliot:

    Death grimly sided with the foe,
    And smote each leaden hero low.
    Proudly they perished one by one:
    The dread Pea-cannon's work was done!
    O not for them the tears we shed,
    Consigned to their congenial lead;

    Not for me the martyrdom, the ecstasy of thought and prayer, Not for me the ultimate vision.
    Saludos.

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