Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 53

Thread: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Yesterday I read a Hindi short story written by Pandey Bechan Sharma 'Ugra'. This author is the very same person from whose work a particular sentence became the topic of discussion in one of the threads initiated by our PG SaaHib. The kind of language employed by the author baffled native Hindi speakers to such an extent that ''birds'' were perceived to be ''Brahmins''! Interested parties can access this thread through this link: Hindi: द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था। *

    The short story is entitled ''खुदाराम KhudaRam'' - a very meaningful title, by the way!
    It spans only 13 pages. You can read the whole text here (23 Hindi kahaaniyaaN –Saahitya Academy (Academy of Literature).On a couple of pages I found a number of references to the recently discussed threads. For your reading pleasure, I am going to post appropriate quotations.

    Please consider how the Hindi epithet ''shuddh Hindii'', which is after all not English but Hindi, is used in a Hindi literary text and what its context is.

    ‘‘कहो मियाँ इनायत अली, आज इधर कैसे ?’’
    ‘‘आप ही की सेवा में कुछ निवेदन करने आया हूँ।’’
    शर्माजी ने चश्मा उतार लिया। उसे कुरते के कोने से साफ़ करने के बाद पुनः नाक पर चढ़ाते-चढ़ाते बोले-
    ‘‘भाई, इनायत, बड़ी शुद्ध हिन्दी बोलते हो ?’’
    ‘‘जी हाँ, शर्माजी, मैं बहुत शुद्ध हिन्दी बोल सकता हूँ इसका कारण यही है कि मेरी नसों में बहुत शुद्ध हिन्दू रक्त बह रहा है। समाज ने ज़बर्दस्ती मेरे पिता को मुसलमान होने के लिए विवश किया, नहीं तो आज मैं भी उतना ही हिन्दू होता जितने आप या कोई भी दूसरा हिन्दुत्व का अभिमानी। ख़ैर मुझे आपसे कुछ कहना है....!’’
    ‘‘कहिए, क्या आज्ञा है ?’’
    ‘‘मैं पुनः हिन्दू होना चाहता हूँ ।’’

    Transliteration:

    ''kaho miyaaN Inaayat Alii, aaj idhar kaise?''
    ''aaphii kii sevaa meN kuchh nivedan karne aayaa huuN''
    Sharmaajii ne chashmaa utaar liyaa. use kurte ke kone se saaf karne ke baad punah: naak par chaRhaate-chaRhaate bole-
    ''bhaaii, Inaayat, baRii shuddh hindii bolte ho?''
    ''jii haaN Sharmaajii, maiN bahut shuddh hindii bol saktaa huuN. iskaa kaaraNR yahii hai ki merii nasoN meN bahut shuddh hinduu rakt bah rahaa hai. samaaj ne zabardastii mere pitaa ko musalmaan hone ke lie vivash kiyaa, nahiiN to aaj maiN bhii utnaa hii hinduu hotaa jitne aap yaa koii bhii duusraa hindutva kaa abhimaanii. xair, mujhe aapse kuchh kahnaa hai...!''
    ''kahie, kyaa aagyaa hai?''
    ''maiN punah: hinduu honaa chaahtaa huuN''.
    ****************************************************

    एक महाशय बोले-‘‘ऋषि दयानन्द की किरपा होगी तो हमारे वे सब बिछड़े भाई एक न एक दिन फिर अपने आर्य धरम में चले आयेंगे। इन्हें ज़रूर शुद्ध कीजिए।’’
    ek mahaashay bole- ''riSHi dayaanand kii kirpaa hogii to hamaare ve sab bichhRe bhaaii ek na ek din phir apne aarya dharam meN chale aayeNge. inheN zaruur shuddh kiijie.

    *(you can see that the word ruchi which was the incentive to create this thread can be found here in the form of a verb ruchnaa).


    (Background: Inayat Ali is a second-generation Muslim whose father, a Hindu, was deemed ''mlechchh'' and forced by his community to renounce his faith and embrace Islam as a consequence of him having a Muslim lady servant who cooked his food and brought water from a well. Now his son wishes to convert to Hinduism.)
    Last edited by marrish; 14th March 2013 at 2:34 AM. Reason: adding background

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ The verb "ruchnaa" isn't being discussed here, anyway: that's a word hardly used, shuddh or non-shuddh, even in literature, and almost never in speech. Your objectives are suspect, marrish.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    Suurya is Sanskrit full-stop. We have adopted it into Hindi as an alternative to the colloquial form.
    How did you arrive at your full stops and the conclusion that it is not Hindi? I wonder about those people bearing very common names like "Surya Pratap": do their acquaintances go to Sanskrit scholars to find out the meaning of their names...

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Native language
    JA- English & Creole
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    How did you arrive at your full stops and the conclusion that it is not Hindi? I wonder about those people bearing very common names like "Surya Pratap": do their acquaintances go to Sanskrit scholars to find out the meaning of their names...

    But such names are very universal across various language communities. Case in point "Aishwariya". Her name is definitely not intended to be Hindi, but it is Sanskrit.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ But "aishwary" is a very commonly used word, too! "veh aajkal baRa aishwary meN jee rahaa hai" is a very common phrase: the Hindi meaning is more "luxury" rather than "wealth". Just because something comes from Sanskrit does not mean that it is outdated or used only after some shuddhikaran movement or whatsoever: words like "aishwary" and "sury" have been part of the culture and spoken language since a long time. The existence of a colloquial register (e.g., "suraj" for sun, or "chaand" for "chandr"/moon) does not mean the former weren't used/comprehended/recognised.

    Most Hindu first names, with a very few exceptions, are commonly understood and used words in Hindi.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    I haven't seen yogaa listed in any Hindi dictionary; only yog. I think yogaa would just be the Anglicized way of saying it, similar to kaarmaa instead of karm. devaa is derived from devataa.
    "yogaa" is the usual pronunciation, Wolverine; dictionaries will of course only give "yog" - another instance of TS's book vs. spoken. There are plenty of both audio and written examples on the Net of "yogaa". For the sake of completeness:

    This link has its own perspective on calling "yog" as "yogaa" - I don't agree with the author, but what it does establish is the widespread practice of the "yogaa" pronunciation (note that in the sense of "union", the pron. remains "yog").

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    ^ The verb "ruchnaa" isn't being discussed here, anyway: that's a word hardly used, shuddh or non-shuddh, even in literature, and almost never in speech. Your objectives are suspect, marrish.
    OK, I agree that it is hardly ever used. It was just a footnote information which I gave and you reacted only to this while the body of my post remains unanswered! Can you offer your opinion with regard to my stance? Are my objectives suspect when I try to answer the question ''what is shuddh'' because you happen to have focused on ''ruchnaa''? I don't know about your motives behind chosing not to answer my post and side-tracking the discussion to ''ruchnaa'' but, most certainly my contributions to the thread are as genuine as they come.
    Last edited by marrish; 17th March 2013 at 11:57 PM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    "yogaa" is the usual pronunciation, Wolverine; dictionaries will of course only give "yog" - another instance of TS's book vs. spoken. There are plenty of both audio and written examples on the Net of "yogaa". For the sake of completeness:

    This link has its own perspective on calling "yog" as "yogaa" - I don't agree with the author, but what it does establish is the widespread practice of the "yogaa" pronunciation (note that in the sense of "union", the pron. remains "yog").
    I don't agree with your explanation. I know yoga is the Sanskrit pronunciation but ''yogaa'' is wrong as it is a re-borrowing from English, as far as I know. You mentioned audio examples. Can you provide a few?
    Last edited by marrish; 17th March 2013 at 10:29 PM. Reason: style

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by marrish View Post
    ... while the body of my post remains unanswered! Can you offer your opinion with regard to my stance? Are my objectives suspect when I try to answer the question ''what is shuddh'' because you happen to have focused on ''ruchnaa''? I don't know about your motives behind chosing not to answer my post and side-tracking the discussion to ''ruchnaa'' but, most certainly my contributions to the thread are as genuine as they come.
    They might certainly be genuine but don't always make sense or try to take the discussion off-topic. I couldn't make much sense of your remaining post: you are quoting a certain Hindi prose piece which has the words "shuddh Hindi" in it ... so? At the most, you are trying to claim that those who espouse Hindutva go for "shuddh" Hindi: ok, that is nothing new. That does not make "shuddh Hindi" some kind of jaundiced thing, just because the Hindutva people are using it, just as swastik is not cast out simply because Hitler used it wrongly.

    We are trying to determine "what's shuddh", to remind you of the discussion. Does this story help? I don't think so. You think so? Ok, then explain why.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^I can only waste my time to explain the obvious after you have responded to my request for audio examples for ''yogaa'' in Hindi.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ Maybe you don't know, marrish, but I've rarely access to YouTube (something that most other forum members know). You can watch the numerous TV channels of India: news, etc., and I am sure you will find many examples of "yogaa" in them.

    Meanwhile, you have in fact wasted the time of others in this thread so far, having not provided anything concrete to say, but rather now petulantly trying to make it even some "yogaa"-centric discussion.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Here is how the word "shuddh" and "shuddh Hindi" have been defined by one of the members of this Forum. That thread is "closed awaiting moderation" whenever PG SaaHib gets a moment!

    "Speaking for myself, I've no idea what such a term could mean with respect to any living language. Any "shuddh" language sounds obnoxious to me! A language keeps taking words from here and there, and that is how it lives and that is how it manifests that it is still breathing: different people and different communities will have different registers and different ways of expression, and the more they are the richer the language is."

    If some of the members could have found a Sanskrit-derived word for "saabun," in one of your threads, QP, they would call it "shuddh" Hindi; that's simply my idea of the term. Though in such cases it would more be unnatural or obsolete or pretentious (depends!) Hindi for me!"

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ You are quoting me, but adding nothing new. All the frequenters on this forum know that I do not favour this rigid divide between Urdu and Hindi that the likes of you prefer - the higher registers of both languages are quite divorced from each other, but the normal spoken language - which can also be called Hindustani (not at all synonymous with Urdu) - by most Indians and Pakistanis (with of course variances in word choices) isn't so ... divided by the forward slash marks that marrish would have us believe.

    The term "shuddh" is something that I don't recognise, and I can only laugh as always at all these FWC stories. The Indian government may write things in some unnatural fashion, but we hardly care; however, when people, apparently those who haven't had the chance of interacting with the length and breadth of India, begin thinking that words like "ruchi" or "aishwary" got into fashion only post FWC, there's a serious misinformation campaign going on.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    [...] but I would also like to open the debate to a larger question: what constitutes "shuddh" Hindi for the people here ..[..]
    Another explanation of what constitutes "shuddh".
    Quote Originally Posted by tonyspeed View Post
    Everyday Hindi is not shuddh. It is the language nazis only that try to make it shuddh.
    Hindi is a mixed language drawing from many sources. Shuddh Hindi is mainly found in books, and even less-so now-a-days when it has become more acceptable to write in normal Hindi as well.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    Here is how the word "shuddh" and"shuddh Hindi" have been defined by one of the members of this Forum.That thread is "closed awaiting moderation" whenever PG SaaHib gets a moment!

    "Speaking for myself, I've no idea what such a term could mean with respect to any living language. Any "shuddh" language sounds obnoxious to me! A language keeps taking words from here and there, and that is how it lives and that is how it manifests that it is still breathing: different people and different communities will have different registers and different ways of expression, and the more they are the richer the language is."

    If some of the members could have found a Sanskrit-derived word for "saabun," in one of your threads, QP, they would call it "shuddh" Hindi; that's simply my idea of the term. Though in such cases it would more be unnatural or obsolete or pretentious (depends!) Hindi for me!"
    23/09/11 and 25/11/2011
    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    [...] But we are talking Hindi. And I am myself one of those "shuddh Hindi" speakers often - "shuddh Hindi" is something sacrosanct to us and not something constructed in the 1800s as some would have you believe. When we speak words like "charitr", "sanskhipt" and "sookshm", we are not speaking neologisms - it is a beautiful, poetic and elegant language to us, this shuddh Hindi.[...]
    26/10/2012
    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    ^ You are quoting me, but adding nothing new. All the frequenters on this forum know that I do not favour this rigid divide between Urdu and Hindi that the likes of you prefer - the higher registers of both languages are quite divorced from each other, but the normal spoken language - [...]

    The term "shuddh" is something that I don't recognise, and I can only laugh as always at all these FWC stories.
    22/03/2013

    Well, can anyone make a head or tail of this?

    1) The writer is not aware what this term (shuddh) could mean with respect to any living language. In fact he finds the very idea of shuddh "obnoxious"!

    2) With regard to Hindi, it is that variety of language in which one would expect to find Sanskrit equivalents of words of Arabic and Persian origins (e.g a Sanskrit equivalent of saabun)

    3) The writer often counts himself as a "shuddh Hindi" speaker, shuddh Hindi being sacrosanct to Hindi speakers and is a "beautiful, poetic and elegant language".

    4) The writer does not recognise the term "shuddh" at all!
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 22nd March 2013 at 5:29 PM. Reason: abnoxious to obnoxious

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Native language
    India - Hindi & English
    Posts
    2,525

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ Ever thought of entering politics? Or, worse, journalism, where you will have the utmost liberty to misquote people out of context, dear QP? If not, you should, right now!

    What you have forgotten, my dear QP, is that in all the quotes you have assembled from me, so painstakingly (I hope you are not doing a thesis on me, or on TS for that matter), the word "shuddh" is in scare quotes always. People who are a part of this forum understand what I was saying where, just as people do understand now your brainwashing tactics and your lack of respect to almost all the members on this forum, shown not least by way of indirect barbs, unnecessary threads created just for the sake of trying to humiliate someone, and lack of answering whenever you don't have an answer.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Here is a sample of "shuddh Hindi" from Urdu, Hindi aur Hindustani by Prem Chand (1934). It has been transcribed into Roman by Rajiv Chakravarti SaaHib.

    "desh meiN aise aadmiyoN ki sankhyaa kam naheeN hai jo Urdu aur Hindi ki alag alag aur svatantr unnati aur vikaas ke maarg meiN baadhak naheeN hona chaahte. unhoN ne yeh maan liya hai k. aarambh meiN in donoN ke svaroopoN meiN chaahe jo kuchch ektaa aur samaantaa rahi ho, lekin phir bhi is samay donoN ki donoN jis raaste par jaa rahi haiN, use dekhte hue in donoN meiN mel aur ektaa honaa asambhav hi hai. pratyek bhaashaa ki ek praakr_tik pravr_tti hoti hai. Urdu kaa Faarsi aur Arabi ke saath svaabhaavik sambandh hai. unki yeh pravr_tti ham kisi shakti se rok naheeN sake. phir in donoN ko aapas meiN milaane ka prayatn kar ke ham kyoN vyarth in donoN ko haani pahuNchaaveN?

    yadi Urdu aur hindi donoN apne aapko apne janm_sthaan aur prachaar kshetr tak hi parimit rakheN to hameN inki vr_ddhi aur vikaas ke sambandh meiN koi aapatti na ho. Banglaa, Marathi, Gujarati, Tamil, Telgu* aur KannaD* aadi praanteey bhaashaaoN ke sambandh meiN hameN kisi prakaarki chinta naheeN hai. unheN adhikaar hai k. ve apne andar chaahe jitni Sanskr_t, arabi yaa Latin aadi bharti chaleN. un bhashaaoN ke lekhak aadi svayaM hi is baat ka nirNay kar sakte haiN; parantu Urdu aur Hindi ki baat in sab se alag hai. yahaaN to donoN ko Bhaaratvarsh ki raashTreey bhaashaa kahlaane ka daava karti haiN. parantu ve apne vyaktigat roop meiN raashTreey aavashshyaktaaoN kee poorti naheeN kar sakeeN aur isi lilye saNyakt roop meiN svayaM hi unkaa saNyog aur mel aarambh ho gayaa. aur donoN ka voh sam_milit svaroop utpann ho gaya jise ham bahut Theek taur par Hindustaani zabaan kahte haiN. vaastavik baat to yeh hai k. Bhaaratvarsh ki raashTreey bhaashaa na to voh Urdu hi ho sakti hai jo Arabi aur Farsi ke aprachalit tathaa kaThin shabdoN ke bhaar se ladi rahti hai aur na voh Hindi hi ho sakti hai jo Sanskr_t ke kaThin shabdoN se ladi hui hoti hai. yadi in donoN bhaashaaoN ke paksh_paati aur samarthak aamne-saame khaRe ho kar apni saahityik bhaashaaoN meiN baateN kareN to shaayad ek doosre ka kuchch bhi matlab na samajh sakeN. hamaari raashTreey bhaasha to vohi ho sakti hai jis ka aadhaar sarva-saamaanya bodh_gamyata ho - jise sab log sahaj meiN samajh sakeN. voh is baat ki kyoN parvaah karne lagi(!) k. amuk shabd is liye chhoR diya jaana chaahiye k. voh Faarsi, Arabi athvaa Sanskr_t ka hai? voh to keval yeh maandaND apne saamne rakhti hai k.jan_saadhaaraN yeh shabd samajh sakte haiN yaa naheeN? yaa jan_saadhaaraN meiN Hindu, Musalmaan, Punjaabi, Bangaali, MaharaasTreey aur Gujarati sabhi sam_milit haiN. yadi koi shabd yaa muhaavra yaa paaribhaashik shabd jan_saadhaaraN meiN prachalit hai to phir voh is baat ki parvaah naheeN karti k. voh kahaaN se niklaa hai aur kahaaN se aaya hai. aur yehi Hindustaani hai. aur jis prakaar angrezoN ki bhaashaa Angrezi, Jaapaan ki bhaashaa Jaapaani, Iran ki Irani aur Cheen ki Cheeni hai, usi prakaar Hindustaan ki raashTreey bhaashaa ko isi taur par Hindustaani na kah kar keval Hind kaheN to iski bhaashaa Hindi kah sakte haiN. lekin yahaaN ki bhaashaa ko Urdu to kisi prakaar kahaa hi naheeN jaa sakta, jab tak ham Hindustaan ko Urdustaan na kahne lageN, jo ab kisi prakaar sambhav hi naheeN hai. praacheen kaal ke log yahaaN ki bhaashaa ko Hindi hi kahte the."
    Last edited by Qureshpor; 23rd March 2013 at 10:20 AM.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    ^ You are quoting me, but adding nothing new. All the frequenters on this forum know that I do not favour this rigid divide between Urdu and Hindi that the likes of you prefer - the higher registers of both languages are quite divorced from each other, but the normal spoken language - which can also be called Hindustani (not at all synonymous with Urdu) - by most Indians and Pakistanis (with of course variances in word choices) isn't so ... divided by the forward slash marks that marrish would have us believe.
    See Woveine9's # Posts 80 and 82 in "Origins of the Division" thread.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showt...f+the+Division

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    One more for Post 35. From the thread "Good Day Good night", in reply to post 12 (which I have quoted in Post 35 of this thread), I add..
    Quote Originally Posted by QURESHPOR View Post
    All the time that I have been associated with this forum, no Hindi speaker has presented anything of the “beauty, poetic characteristics or elegance” of their language, either through their own pieces of writing or literary quotes. I am not suggesting an absolute absence of these characteristics but, as the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
    And this is the reply (contained in Post 67 of the "Best way to learn Hindustani thread".

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showt...1586560&page=4
    Quote Originally Posted by greatbear View Post
    (here) [...] You have quoted many fine couplets from Urdu, but it has not made me feel Urdu as an elegant language. It is a subjective thing. When I use "shuddh" Hindi terms, they uplift me: not because they were used by XYZ, but because they have something inherent to them for me.[...] For me, shuddh Hindi is poetic and elegant; [...]
    Context for all quotes in Post 35 can easily be obtained by typing a small section from it in the search field. If this proves difficult for any one, I can help in posting links to threads with post numbers.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Hindi-Urdu: What is "shuddh"?

    ^ The threads and the concerned posts can be easily consulted by clicking on the button next to the poster's name inside the quotes.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •