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Thread: Slovak: question tag

  1. #1
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    Slovak: question tag

    What do you call a tag question: "dodatočná otázka"?

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Disjunktívna otázka.

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Hi monalisa! "disjunktívna otázka" is fine when talking about the English thing. For the needs of Slovak grammar I would name it "vylučovacia otázka". Just if you want to make it simpler for Slovaks.

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Thanks Azori,
    but I coundn't find it in Slovak sources

    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=disjunk...utf-8&oe=utf-8
    and here it seems to have a different meaning

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by monalisa! View Post
    Thanks Azori,
    but I coundn't find it in Slovak sources

    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=disjunk...utf-8&oe=utf-8
    and here it seems to have a different meaning
    What Slovak sources do you have in mind? I've used an English-Slovak dictionary which translates "question tag" as "disjunktívna otázka". Google does give results for it, too.

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Yes, that is what Lingea has, but I checked with Kacala, and it does not make sense in Slovak (at least to me)
    Yes Google gave me 6 hits, but I thought they are copied from the wrong transaltion,

    Vianie seems to have the correct translation, lebo the actual language translation gives us a vylučovacia spojka "sùhlasiš, či nie?"
    You agree, don't you?

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by monalisa! View Post
    Vianie seems to have the correct translation, lebo the actual language translation gives us a vylučovacia spojka "Sùhlasíš, či nie však / všakže*?" And then "však / všakže" would be a "uvádzacia pobádacia (adhortatívna) častica.
    You agree, don't you?
    No, I don`t. Do you think that "disjunktívna" otázka and "vylučovacia" otázka are the same thing, monalisa? No, they aren`t.
    There are two types of "disjunktívna otázka": a) exkluzívna (vylučovacia) disjunktívna otázka = the answer is only one statement (either positive or negative). b) inkluzívna (nevylučovacia) otázka = the answer is either "positive" or "negative" or both are used in the answer.
    Therefore I am of the opinion that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Azori View Post
    Disjunktívna otázka.
    ...is a very good translation of a "tag question". Other possible translations are (krátka) prídavná otázka, koncová otázka, zisťovacia otázka.

    * In Slovak, the correct translation of tag questions is "však" / "všakže" apod.
    Last edited by morior_invictus; 28th March 2013 at 4:03 PM.
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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by morior_invictus View Post
    No, I don`t. Do you think that disjunktívna" otázka"and "vylučovacia" otázka are the same thing, monalisa? No, they aren`t.
    No, I do not, that's why I opted for Vianies's.
    disjunktívna" otázka, Kacala says is rozlučovacia (can you give me an example of such a spojka?)
    As to the correct translation , as usual, I took my example from SNK! (now you are going to hate it!)
    As to však, once again, Kacala says it means only "is it true?", and IMHO does not translate the alternative
    You agree, morior, [or] do you not?/ don't you?

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by monalisa! View Post
    As to the correct translation , as usual, I took my example from SNK! (now you are going to hate it!)
    From http://korpus.juls.savba.sk/:
    Slúži ako referenčný zdroj poznatkov o slovenčine a jej reálnom používaní, nenahrádza však kodifikačné príručky.
    What does this say?

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Vyhlásili ich Spojené národy , či nie ? “ „ Áno , asi hej . ‘ Of course , sir . They were declared by the UN , were n't they ?
    to môže byť jedine černoška , či nie ? " Zamestnankyňa Avisu , ktorá jej to auto požičala , vraví , že to bola černoška , " povie Sally , akoby mu čítala myšlienky . But a name like Washington ? Has to be black , does n't it ?
    Ale tuším si ich všetky zjedla , či nie ? " " Kedy pôjdeme domov , ocko ? " " Not as good as waffles . " " But I see you ate them all , did n't you ?
    There are thousands of examples in SNK, and , as they say, usage makes language.
    But the point is that I did not find in Kacala, any mention of disjunktivny: disjunctia, as you know, is a logics concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction, as morior specified,
    and IMHO he proved my case, as both sentences cannot be true. (či, here means aut)
    Last edited by monalisa!; 28th March 2013 at 5:25 PM.

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by monalisa! View Post
    disjunktívna" otázka, Kačala says is rozlučovacia vylučovacia (can you give me an example of such a spojka?) If Kačala says that "disjunktívna otázka" needs a "rozlučovaciu spojku" he should think of a fact that Slovak doesn`t know such type of a conjunction. (and please, don`t quote me KSSJ that it does ) So "priraďovacie spojky" are divided into four categories (one of them is "vylučovacie spojky" - here are some examples for you: alebo, buď, či, buď-alebo apod.)
    As to však, once again, Kacala says it means only "is it true?"*, and IMHO does not translate the alternative
    You agree, morior, [or] do you not?/ don't you?
    * I`m afraid that I don`t.
    však
    4. pobáda na súhlas s výpoveďou, s hovoriacim • pravda: Vtedy nám bolo dobre, však, pravda? • nie: Vari by sme mali už ísť, nie? • expr.: všakvervšakže: Už by si chcel mať pokoj, všakver, všakže? Však, všakže musíme byť ticho? • expr. všakhej • zastaráv.: všakánovšakpravda • nár. šaknespráv. že
    As you can see from the quoted text, Kačala is wrong and "však" / "všakže" apod. is the correct translation of every tag question. Your "či nie" is grammatically incorrect and as far as I know, it is not currently used (or maybe in some regions). These versions of tag questions are used today:
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, či?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, či?" (frequently used but grammatically incorrect and I cringe every time I hear it)
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, že?" / "Že pôjdeš so mnou von?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, že?" (frequently used but grammatically incorrect )
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, však?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, však?" (not frequently used but grammatically correct )

    Now, let`s take a look at disjunctions. I will try to explain to you why Azori is right, so apart from the fact that "logical disjunction" needs an obvious "or" operator (i.e. coordinating conjunction "alebo"), these are the examples of disjunctive / tag questions:
    "Quit talking, will you?" (polite request) - both "statements" are either true (1) or false (0), so actually, the answer would be either 00 or 11, i.e. an inclusive disjunction (inkluzívna disjunktívna otázka).
    "Oh, you won`t, won`t you?" (irony) - both "statements" are either true (1) or false (0), so actually, the answer would be an inclusive disjunction.
    "You ain`t gon be actin` like that, right?" (barbarian English + dialectal form of a tag) - we have 0 and 1 in this tag question and regarding the intonation we are expecting either 0 or 1, so the answer would actually be an exclusive disjunction (i.e. exkluzívna / vylučovacia disjunktívna otázka).
    "Your real name isn`t monalisa!, is it?" (an intonation would tell you if I already know the answer or I`m not sure if that statement is correct) - in this sentence, we have 0 and 1 and regarding the intonation we are expecting either positive or negative answer - exkluzívna disjunktívna otázka.
    "You have a car, don`t you (AmE) / haven`t you (BrE)?" - the same as above.
    So, "exkluzívne" + "inkluzívne" otázky = disjunktívne otázky.

    For further information, see also:
    disjunctive question [isn’t he/she?]
    "disjunctive question " questions again

    Oh, and before I forget, you should also bear in mind this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Azori View Post
    >>>KNS<<< Slúži ako referenčný zdroj poznatkov o slovenčine a jej reálnom používaní, nenahrádza však kodifikačné príručky.
    So, in this case, I`m that "kodifikačná príručka".
    Last edited by morior_invictus; 28th March 2013 at 11:02 PM.
    Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires. - Lǎozǐ

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by morior_invictus View Post
    As you can see from the quoted text, Kačala is wrong and "však" ...So, in this case, I`m that "kodifikačná príručka".
    a "rozlučovaciu spojku" he should think of a fact that Slovak doesn`t know such type of a conjunction. (and please, don`t quote me KSSJ that it
    I did not understand what you mean, and if you are joking:
    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=disjunk...utf-8&oe=utf-8

    I was asking for an example of ""rozlučovaciu spojku", did you mean it does not exist?
    As to the main issue, I think you made a mixture of different, incompatible items, in this case:
    "Quit talking, will you?", the tag question means just "please" and it cannot be labelled as exclusive, nor disjunctive., it's just a tag
    that's why I offered "dodatočná" in the first place

    AS to who is wrong, there can be no higher authority than Logics and Linguistics.
    I beg to differ from you and Azori.
    Disjunctive means just disjunctive: VEL is inclusive disjunction and AUT is not inclusive/ exclusive (vyluovacia) disjunction. Natural languages use indifferently or (alebo/ či) for both. That's that!
    I hope you can see my point: I am just repeating what you stated in post 7.

    P.S.: I hope you'll no cringe
    http://korpus.sk:8091/manatee.ks/do_...ie&in_corpus=0
    Last edited by monalisa!; 29th March 2013 at 7:48 AM.

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    Quote Originally Posted by monalisa! View Post
    I was asking for an example of ""rozlučovaciu spojku", did you mean it does not exist? Yes, I did. Slovak doesn`t know such a type of conjunction and there is a good reason for that. "Alebo" vylučuje 1 alternatívu od druhej a nie rozlučuje. You can "rozlúčiť sa so slobodou", "rozlúčiť sa s kamarátom" but not "rozlúčiť niečo od niečoho". Some examples of "vylučovacie spojky" I`ve given you above.

    As to the main issue, I think you made a mixture of different, incompatible items, in this case:
    "Quit talking, will you?", the tag question means just "please" and it cannot be labelled as exclusive, nor disjunctive., it's just a tag
    that's why I offered "dodatočná" in the first place Well, that`s not "just" a tag. Yes, it has a similar effect to the addition of "please", but there is a slight suggestion that I might be expecting "yes" to be the answer, so it`s a construction "affirmative + positive tag" and what result will you get if you get either positive or negative answer to that question?

    AS to who is wrong, there can be no higher authority than Logics and Linguistics. There is no higher authority than you and your final decision. We can only help you to make the right one. (I hope so).
    I beg to differ from you and Azori. I understand that you need a perfect translation and any false interpretation may cause you some problems. From statistical point of view, we (Azori, vianie, me) are not a representative sample, so we may not accurately reflect Slovak of the entire Slovak population and therefore it`s only up to you what you will take from this conversation. But bear in mind that we really do our best to give you the correct answer, we try to consider every aspect of the issue you ask about and if you feel that your point of view is better, it`s OK. Only you know what suits you best.
    Disjunctive means just disjunctive: VEL is inclusive disjunction and AUT is not inclusive/ exclusive (vyluovacia) disjunction. Natural languages use indifferently or (alebo/ či) for both. That's that!
    vel is an inclusive disjunction (i.e. the alternatives may still exclude each other, but the exclusion is not emphasized as it`s with exclusive aut) and aut is an exclusive disjunction (I don`t understand why you typed that it`s not ). Examples: vel A vel B = A or B or "if you wish" A and B; aut A aut B = A or (else) B.
    I hope you can see my point: I am just repeating what you stated in post 7. I also thought that you saw my point but it seems from the above that you didn`t.

    P.S.: I hope you'll no cringe Well, I did. As to your "či nie" I already gave you my piece of mind.
    http://korpus.sk:8091/manatee.ks/do_...ie&in_corpus=0
    Manifest plainness, embrace simplicity, reduce selfishness, have few desires. - Lǎozǐ

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    Re: Slovak: question tag

    1) that we really do our best to give you the correct answer, we try to consider every aspect of the issue you ask about and if you feel
    2) that your point of view is better

    1) I do appreciate that morior, and

    2)as I've seen you have a scholarly mind, I try to reciprocate to the best of my abilities. But please note that I did not give you my opinion, but quoted KSSJ, SNK and wikipedia. If you are interested (and only if) I'll give you further explanations.
    Thank you, morior and Azori


    P.S. AUT is not inclusive/ exclusive, they are just synonyms like yours: inkluzívna (nevylučovacia)

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