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Thread: Deponent verbs

  1. #1
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    Passive Form of Sequor

    It seems like there should be a passive form of certain deponent verbs, such as sequor, i.e. if you wanted to say, "He was followed by her." I don't understand how you would express this in Latin if sequor has no passive form.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Deponent verbs cannot be used in a passive form, so there are at least three alternatives to express a passive form:
    1. use an active synonymous
    2. turn the sentence into active form
    3. adopt the passive form of verb affĭcĭo, affĭcis, affeci, affectum, affĭcĕre to build a periphrasis

    E.g.

    I'm followed by my friends

    Comites me sequuntur (turned into active)

    or should be somthing like (Ego) afficior comitum secutu ...literally... "I'm made able to be followed by (literally of) my friends"
    Indeed I'm not absolutely sure of the sentence above... please, wait also for someone else.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Thanks! I understand the first two suggestions, but what is a periphrasis?

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Thanks! I understand the first two suggestions, but what is a periphrasis?
    It is a way to express a concept with a set of words different from the original intent. That is an indirect expression, or a circumlocution.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Oh, I see. Thanks again!

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by rainbowizard View Post
    3. adopt the passive form of verb affĭcĭo, affĭcis, affeci, affectum, affĭcĕre to build a periphrasis

    E.g.
    or should be somthing like (Ego) afficior comitum secutu ...literally... "I'm made able to be followed by (literally of) my friends"
    .
    I never learned something about these uses of afficio and the supine in -ū. Why the genitive comitum ? Do you have any reference for that ?

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    "Sequor" indeed has only passive forms but can never have passive meanings.
    The best way to say "He was followed by her" would be simply to say "She followed him," just as rainbowizard has pointed out:

    (Illa/Ea) eum sequebatur/est secuta.

    The use of "afficior" seems really odd to me. "Adficere" (as can be seen from the past participle adfectus/affectus) means "to affect someone, to do something to someone, etc." If anything, I would translate "Afficior comitum secutu" as "I am moved/affected (in)to the following of the friends," i.e. "I am made to follow the friends." I guess... but still a little strange.
    Last edited by brian; 6th January 2008 at 6:42 PM. Reason: oops! thanks wonderment
    "I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way."

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by brian8733 View Post
    (Illa/Ea) eum sequebat/est secuta.
    Forbidden.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainbowizard View Post
    Deponent verbs cannot be used in a passive form, so there are at least three alternatives to express a passive form:
    1. use an active synonymous
    2. turn the sentence into active form
    3. adopt the passive form of verb aff?c?o, aff?cis, affeci, affectum, aff?c?re to build a periphrasis
    Wow, rainbowizard, #3 is really creative! I never would’ve thought of that. Is it legal?

    This is my parsing of the sentence:

    afficior comitum secutu
    I am affected in being followed by my friends.
    Or more literally: I’m affected in respect to the being followed of my friends. (Please shoot me if I ever start to write like this.)

    Secutu is a supine, verbal noun in the ablative case (ablative of respect or specification). The construction must be similar to a common supine phrase: “mirabile dictu” (amazing to say, or amazing in the saying, or amazing in respect to saying). Comitum is in the genitive case, subjective or descriptive genitive with secutu (?)

    Is this close to what you intended? Maybe?

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderment View Post
    Or more literally: I’m affected in respect to the being followed of my friends.
    Yes, that was almost my intent... I remember something about in my (old) study... the sentence to be composed as:

    Passive form of adficio + passive supine (as abl. of limitation) (+ genitive of specification)

    Translated in Italian (my native tongue) adficior secutu comitum should sound as "Mi dispongo al seguito dei compagni".

    Nevertheless this form should not have been used very often (almost never as far as I know) and are largely preferred the #1 and #2 options I wrote above.

    As soon as possible I'll meet a friend that teaches Latin and I'll ask him about this sentence

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    sequor

    Hi! I am seeking help with the deponent verbs.

    So, deponent verbs are passive in form, but active in meaning.
    like te sequor "I follow you”.

    How do I say "you are followed" in Latin then? Is it even possible to express that with the same verb?

    My grammar book tells me that sequendus is passive in meaning, which sounds like no other form is passive in meaning!

    Thanks in advance!!

    PS. I read also that deponent verbs sometimes have passive meaning in the Perfect Passive Participle, e.g. adeptus “attained”. How often do they do then?

    << This thread has been joined to another dealing with the same puzzle. Please read from the top. >>
    Last edited by Cagey; 13th June 2012 at 7:33 PM. Reason: Merge with previous thread.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    For your questions about the participles, see the following thread:
    Passive Participles of Deponent Verbs

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Thanks to CapnPrep, that helps a lot!

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    So, nothing parallel to "you are followed". Is it that the best I can do is aliquis te sequitur?

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    You can always paraphrase with a noun: secutorem/secutricem habes you have a pursuer.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Unas posibilidades:

    Illa me persecuta est. Illa me insectat.

    (Ego) ab illa exagitatus/uexatus/instatus sum.
    καὶ Αιὲν ο κόσμος ο μικρὀς, ο Μέγας! - e sempre o mundo o pequeno, o Grande!

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by exgerman View Post
    You can always paraphrase with a noun: secutorem/secutricem habes you have a pursuer.
    Well, my secutor might be on his holiday and not currently behind me, right? There has to be something like a verb that explicitly depicts the state of being followed.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Oh I just duplicated the post by mistake. Ok, I'll just edit it.

    In China, we say “把尾巴甩掉”, literally "to get rid of the tail/tails". “尾巴” or tail/tails in Chinese could be understood as people that is/are currently following someone. I don't know if secutor can be used the same way, without ambiguity like I suppose it has in my previous post.
    Last edited by Lovelogue; 16th June 2012 at 7:49 PM.

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    Re: Passive Form of Sequor

    Quote Originally Posted by XiaoRoel View Post
    (Ego) ab illa exagitatus/uexatus/instatus sum.
    Thanks, but these words don't seem right, in any sense of following. And I guess insto lacks the passive participle.

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    Deponent verbs

    New question added to existing thread.
    << Please respond to this question after reading posts above.
    Cagey, moderator.
    >>


    Hello!

    I'm reading about the deponent verbs in Latin and I have a doubt about them. Deponent verbs don't have an active form, you always use them in the passive form but their meaning is active; unless we use passive deponents. How do I do if I want to use them with a passive meaning? Does using their passive form can also render a passive/impersonal meaning depending on context or do I have to use something else? For example with verbs like loquor, hortor, sequor, solor.

    For example:

    Loquitur latine in Roma/in Roma latine loquitur

    I'm told that... loquor...

    Does the first sentence only mean she/he speaks Latin in Rome or can it also mean Latin is spoken in Rome (on parle latin/se habla latín)?

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Cagey; 27th March 2013 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Merge threads. Thank you, CapnPrep.
    Username: Suzumiya. 所詮この世は弱肉強食。強ければ生き、弱ければ死ぬ。-志々雄真実

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    Re: Deponent verbs

    "loquitur" means "he (or she or it) speaks." It cannot mean "it is spoken."

    By the way, "latine" is not a noun. It is an adverb. In Latin, one speaks "Latinly" =
    "in the Latin style." By the logic of Latin, you cannot speak Latin or English or
    any other language. That would mean you opened your mouth and the entire language
    --vocabulary, grammar, and so--on came tumbling out. Instead one must speak
    Latinly or Englishly--that is, in the style of Latin or English. "Anglice loquor" =
    "I speak English" ("Englishly").

    "Latine loquitur" means "he (she, it) speaks Latin" ("Latinly"). It cannot have
    a passive meaning.

    (And the usual expression for "in Rome" is "Romae" (that's called a locative form).

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