Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Vissir þú... að með PlayStation 4-leikjatölvunni verður hægt að deila leikjum á Internetinu og spila streymda leiki?


    This is from the Icelandic wikipedia homepage. "Did you know that (with?) Playstation 4 (gaming computer/console???) (will posible?) to share games on the internet and play streamed games.

    Apart from the question marks which I would appreciate someone ironing out... What are the factors that cause streymda to be used (which is classed as a Veik Beyging) rather than streymdan (the singular, male, accusative case in the Sterk beyging)

    What causes the shift between strong and weak.

    Thanks, Jake

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Hi ShakeyX

    First, the sentence: Did you know that with the PlayStation 4 (games console) it will be possible to share games on the internet and play streamed games?
    Now the grammar: This used to confuse me a lot when you had plural masculine nouns that have -i instead of -a in the accusative plural.

    In 'streymda' here, you're talking about an adjective derived from a verb. So, here it's strong/weak declensions of adjectives derived from verbs. You have "spila leiki" (play games) so if you want to put an adjective in there, it has to be in the accusative (because 'spila' governs the accusative case) and it has to be plural (because leiki is masculine plural accusative).

    Take a look at the declension for 'streyma' here. Go down to where it says
    Lýsingarháttur þátíðar and look at those tables. Now that you now you need the plural, so it's the table to the right. It's a masculine word so pick the first column and it's accusative, which in Icelandic is Þolfall (Þf.). I think it's just a case of you looking at the singular here (which would be 'streymdan') when you need to be looking at the plural. The plural accusative of masculine nouns always ends in -a (even if the corresponding masculine noun does not). Actually I see what you mean now, by calling it weak. Yes, it's true that some forms represent multiple functions, but rather than looking at the singular weak, you need to look at the strong plural (specifically: accusative). That's the form that's being used here.

    Games console (i.e. games computer) = leikja+tölva.
    Not sure if you were confused by that but adding it in anyway. You got the right translation.

    What causes the shift between strong and weak.
    I don't know if you meant 'in this case' (which isn't a case of any change here - all strong declension) or if you meant more generally. If you meant more generally, then it's a case of whether there is the definite article attached to the noun (or it's been 'defined' in another way, like with a possessive or something).
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 11th April 2013 at 7:56 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Native language
    English, USA
    Posts
    4,776

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Quote Originally Posted by Alxmrphi View Post
    "What causes the shift between strong and weak."

    I don't know if you meant 'in this case' (which isn't a case of any change here - all strong declension) or if you meant more generally. If you meant more generally, then it's a case of whether there is the definite article attached to the noun (or it's been 'defined' in another way, like with a possessive or something).
    Aren't there cases where a definite article is attached to a noun, but the adjective remains in the strong form? (E.g., hávaxinn maðurinn "the tall man", where hávaxinn is the strong nom. sg. form.)

    We discussed this here a while back, and if I recall correctly, the weak form of the adjective can only (technically) be used when you're contrasting two or more things designated by the same noun: hávaxni maðurinn would thus mean "the tall man" as contrasted with (e.g.) a short man present in the same context. On the other hand, hávaxinn maðurinn would simply mean "the tall man (who was mentioned earlier)".

    However, I also remember someone saying that this "rule" is not always followed in everyday speech.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Well, yes.

    I didn't want to cause an information overload, though.
    Learn the rule, then the exceptions come later on. I would have given up if I had all that information at the start when still getting my head around automatically changing adjectives depending on the article, with my mind freezing while I imagine tables and selecting mental boxes trying to get the right declensional form.

    I don't think the 'tall man' example works, really. You can use the strong form of adjectives when there is only one thing that can be referred to or if talking about a general noun that's hard to divide into pieces (i.e. concepts of 'sea'/'ocean' and 'snow') and then the strong adjective means that the noun is in a temporary state (i.e. a specific colour or something). It is said that the weak adjective is used when you can have other people/things that can be referred to, but it's not as general to be (readily) allowed in examples like that. You reference a man who is tall in a story, there are still other men in the whole overall situation (there must be) so I don't think it's anything common to do given that men can't readily enter into states of being tall and then not being. But still. This is really detailed and quite complex and don't want to overload the OP.
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 11th April 2013 at 11:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Native language
    English, USA
    Posts
    4,776

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Quote Originally Posted by Alxmrphi View Post
    This is really detailed and quite complex and don't want to overload the OP.
    OK, I'll start a new thread to continue the discussion.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Okay just to confirm, I accidentally used the singular ... don't know why, no logical reason. So what I meant to do was use the past participle, plural, accusative, MALE (as leikur is male) form.

    So I have the choice now which is what I am struggling with. Do I use... Streymda (strong), or Streymdu (weak).

    What is it affecting this decision, is it the noun it's attached to? Sorry I'm finding it hard to understand still. Maybe some examples with the same sentence with a replaced noun (if it is indeed the noun that alters the strong/weak choice).

    Thanks, Jake

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    What is it affecting this decision, is it the noun it's attached to? Sorry I'm finding it hard to understand still. Maybe some examples with the same sentence with a replaced noun (if it is indeed the noun that alters the strong/weak choice).
    This is the rule: If there is a definite article attached to the noun (or words for 'this/that' before it), use the weak declension. If there is no definite article (i.e. talking about things in general) then you use the strong form.

    So it'd be... 'spila streymdu leikina' (play the streamed games) and 'spila streymnda leiki' (play streamed games).

    Hvítu skyrturnar eru í fataskápnum (The white shirts are in the wardrobe) - maybe specifically meaning 'the ones I ironed yesterday' or something.
    Hvítar skyrtur líta vel út (White shirts look nice)

    When you restrict what you're talking about to be a specific thing you're referring to (by using 'the' or 'those/these') then you use the weak declension. When you're talking in general and don't mean a specific instance of something, then the strong declension is used. If you want to talk about the animals in the park = weak declension, but if you want to talk about animals in general, strong declension.

    Does that help? Try and write 2-3 examples of your own to see if you've got the hang of it.
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 12th April 2013 at 3:10 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Yeh that helps. Completely opposite from what I would imagine. It seems STRONG would pair with DEFINITE and WEAK with INDEFINITE but... oh well.

    Thanks for the help

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Okay exert from wikipedia page.

    Á stöku stað er landið kallað...

    "In an isolated part is the (land???) called..."

    Stað is using the indefinite... actually I really don't get this one at all. Staður is male, yet nowhere in either weak or strong is the word stöku in the male section.

    What's up with that.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Stað is using the indefinite... actually I really don't get this one at all. Staður is male, yet nowhere in either weak or strong is the word stöku in the male section.
    I can easily see how that can be confusing. Sometimes things are just fossilised expressions and then they take on more idiomatic/metaphoric meanings (and are often syntactically different). Consider "to and fro" in English. Nobody says 'fro' anymore and it's a fossilisation from when people used fro which was imported from the Vikings and once a common preposition before being dropped. This is an example of it in Icelandic where the meaning is more 'in some areas/places' or even 'occasionally' (i.e. in some places). In a report or a thesis you can see things like Á stöku stað verður stíllinn svolítið bóklegur (In some places [occasionally] the style will be a little bookish).

    So, once you consider it as its own sort of idiomatic phrase and memorise it as such, there's no need to analyse it as individual items which, as you correctly see, don't follow the usual rules.
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 12th April 2013 at 6:02 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    I just realized my mistake with my translation aswell now. I guess if the phrase "Á stöku stað" is acting as an adverb then it has that weird (Verb/Subject switch)

    So I guess it should be.. In some places the country is called. I originally thought it meant there was a particular place, CALLED something else.

    Oh Icelandic you foul beast.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Oh Icelandic you foul beast.

    I guess if the phrase "Á stöku stað" is acting as an adverb then it has that weird (Verb/Subject switch)
    Not necessarily as an adverb, you could have anything similar in that position and it'd be the same.

    [Í húsi föður míns] er þetta kallað..
    (In my father's house this is called...)

    It's a prepositional phrase being put at the front (just like in the á stöku stað example).
    So originally (or in a more normal word order) it is:
    Landið er kallað [X] á stöku stað.
    Then shifted: Á stöku stað er landið kallað [X].

    Clear?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    So very clear! :P Nah I gotcha! Sincerely thanks for all the help.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    One last query to seal the deal.

    Kórea var eitt ríki til ársins 1948 þegar landinu var skipt í Kóreustríðinu...

    Korea was one state until the year 1948 when the country (unsure why this is in the dative?) was separated in the Korean War.

    So other than the question in brackets, what form is SKIPT in? I thought if VERA was used as an auxiliary then the past participle (which bends to gender and case) is used. Could I get the exact form which this is in.

    Thanks

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Wow, you're battling through all the tricky points at once, I see. I hope it isn't too much of a complicated explanation.
    First of all, to clear up some terminology: benda = decline/conjugate (when talking about grammar).

    When vera is an auxiliary and you have a past participle, it only agrees with things in the nominative case.
    Now, passives are transformed from active sentences. Now, when you have a verb that gives its object a case thatisn't accusative, then when you make the passive, it doesn't transform like you would expect. The 'new' subject keeps the same case, and there is no agreement with 'vera' and the past participle. Now, when I say there is no agreement, what I mean is there is 'default agreement' which means singular neuter. So, the verb 'skipta' in this case gives its object the dative case, so when it's made into a passive, the original object of the verb keeps that case (X split the country -> The country was split (by X)).

    Now, when you ACTUALLY have a singular noun in the neuter then it shows the same case form. So here, even if this rule wasn't the case, the form would be the same.

    To give another example, one verb that takes accusative and one that takes the dative:

    Ég málaði myndina - I painted the picture
    Ég breytti þeim- I changed them

    >>

    Myndin var máluð - The picture was painted (agreement)
    Þeim var breytt- They were changed (no agreement; note plural subject but singular verb)

    So, that's where the dative comes from. If you look at the declensional paradigm for skipta then you'll see "skipt" is the neuter singular.
    Last edited by Alxmrphi; 14th April 2013 at 3:37 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kallinge, Sweden
    Native language
    Icelandic
    Age
    32
    Posts
    424

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Quote Originally Posted by Alxmrphi View Post
    Ég braut þeim- I broke them

    >>

    Þeim var brotið - They were broken (no agreement; note plural subject but singular verb)
    Wait, what?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Gah, I meant to use breyta and not brjóta.
    Editing now...

    Thanks for catching!
    I had just been reading how breyta was derived from brjóta and then must have mixed them up when doing the example.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Rather than make a new thread... just add more concerns to this hot pot as it relates to the strong/weak thing.

    Article, wikipedia, states;

    Nes er vinsælasta leikjatölva síns tíma

    NES is most popular games console of it's time.

    My question, why not LeikjatölvaN... THE most popular. Doesn't seem to make any sense without this, and would this then change the adjective from weak to strong/strong to weak?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reykjavík, Ísland
    Native language
    UK English
    Posts
    18,506

    Re: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Quote Originally Posted by Alxmrphi View Post
    Hi ShakeyX

    [..]

    I don't know if you meant 'in this case' (which isn't a case of any change here - all strong declension) or if you meant more generally. If you meant more generally, then it's a case of whether there is the definite article attached to the noun (or it's been 'defined' in another way, like with a possessive or something).
    It's this. The possessive 'defines' it as being unique (which the definite article does) and that gives rise to it being specific/specified and therefore needs the weak declension.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Native language
    British English
    Posts
    484

    Re: Icelandic: Sterk/Veik beyging

    Okay I get that the sins has caused it to be specific, forcing weak declension. However I am still confused as to why the definite isn't used... Tölvan mín, Tövlan þín.... Tölva síns??? AF HVERJU?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •