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Thread: Origin of Persian تقلا

  1. #1
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    Origin of Persian تقلا

    Hi,

    At first I thought تقلا taqallā (useless struggle) may be a corrupted Arabic word in باب تفعل like تسلا-تسلی. The closest thing I found was تغلی (anxiety resulted by fever).
    My second thought is that the word has a Turkish origin. In this regard, it can be related to تلاش tal
    āš.
    Another idea is that it has the same structure as تکاپوی
    takāpui (v. root+ a + v. root). but it is corrupted over time: تک + ا + لای (move and grieve).

    Is any of these correct? Or is there another story behind it?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    My thought is that it may be a cognate to the Ancient Greek adjectives τάλας or τλήμων which derive from the IE root *telə = to lift/endure/stand something. Sansk. tula, Germ. dulden, Lat. tollere are all cognates.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by Perseas View Post
    My thought is that it may be a cognate to the Ancient Greek adjectives τάλας or τλήμων which derive from the IE root *telə = to lift/endure/stand something. Sansk. tula, Germ. dulden, Lat. tollere are all cognates.
    It seems unlikely because taqalla is a new word in Persian. I couldn't find any usage before last century. Even the most complete Persian dictionary (Dehkhoda) does not give much information about it except a brief meaning (which may be added recently by online users).

    By the way, I think I've just found the Arabic root for it. taqalli in Arabic means "to roll on a carpet". It seems this word is not used in Arabic anymore.

    Thanks, anyway.
    Last edited by Treaty; 31st March 2013 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    تقلا taqallā (useless struggle)
    Could taqallā be related to Pashto takal "attempt, effort, essay, endeavor"?

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by Skatinginbc View Post
    Could taqallā be related to Pashto takal "attempt, effort, essay, endeavor"?
    takal reminds me of English "tackle". In Dari, it is pronounced as takel. In Persian, takl is used only in sports situation (tackle: trying to take the ball from the opponent).

    I'm almost sure that taqallā is the same as Arabic taqalli. Usually, the person or animal who does taqallā is defeated and fallen on the ground. So they struggle to free themselves or change the situation by rolling or similar actions. And taqalli in (archaic) Arabic meant "hostility, enmity" and also "to roll over the ground/carpet". Unfortunately, you cannot find the Arabic word in most dictionaries.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    In Turkish, "takıl" means "to trip and fall" or "to be hanged to somewhere". There are other meanings but this seems to be related.

    There is also something that seems related with the subject. The root "tag":

    "tagla" means "to tag an animal (like a horse)" using hot iron.


    What are some other similar words? (even if they have a known etymology). I have some other words that might be related with the meaning of "useless struggle". (for example, "toqum" means "the animal that's going to be butchered"... or "tügül" means "a knot that can't be solved".... or "tügül" means "food sticking to ones throat nearly suffocating him")
    Last edited by ancalimon; 1st April 2013 at 4:01 AM.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    I found in Arabic forum (courtesy of lukebeadgcf), that taqalli means "to loath" and "to toss in bed". In my opinion, it suggests a concept of "trying not to face something unpleasant". It is common that the pronunciation of the last vowel in a word like this changes to a in Persian. I think the original meaning of taqalla in Persian was to "try not to face barriers, for achieving something". This is close to current meaning: (useless) struggle to achieve something.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    "tagla" means "to tag an animal (like a horse)" using hot iron.
    I thought the main word for "branding" in Turkish is dağ. Is tagla also used in Turkish?

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    I thought the main word for "branding" in Turkish is dağ. Is tagla also used in Turkish?
    Sorry forgot to mention Old Turkic.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
    In Turkish, "takıl" means "to trip and fall" or "to be hanged to somewhere". There are other meanings but this seems to be related.

    There is also something that seems related with the subject. The root "tag":

    "tagla" means "to tag an animal (like a horse)" using hot iron.
    The root t-k-l in Hebrew means "to run into something", both in the meaning of "to meet someone/something unexpectedly" and "to bump into/trip on someone/something and fall to the ground".

    "takala" means "obstacle" or "malfunction".

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by bazq View Post
    The root t-k-l in Hebrew means "to run into something", both in the meaning of "to meet someone/something unexpectedly" and "to bump into/trip on someone/something and fall to the ground".

    "takala" means "obstacle" or "malfunction".
    I'm afraid you mixed two or even three different things that happen to look similar.

    * תקלה taqala (or tqala) of root t-q-l = obstacle, malfunction, probably related (derived from?) root q-l-q-l. A Hebrew word. להתקל = to bump into is also here I believe.
    * תיקול tiqqul (in sport) = to tackle (trip up) the opponent aggressively, apparently borrowed from the English sport term, or at least influenced by.
    * תאקל taqel = incident, dispute. This one may be similar to the Persian term in this thread. Not sure whether it's related to any of the two above, I think not.
    Last edited by origumi; 1st April 2013 at 8:28 PM.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by origumi View Post
    I'm afraid you mixed two or even three different things that happen to look similar.

    * תקלה taqala (or tqala) of root t-q-l = obstacle, malfunction, probably related (derived from?) root q-l-q-l. A Hebrew word. להתקל = to bump into is also here I believe.
    * תיקול tiqqul (in sport) = to tackle (trip up) the opponent aggressively, apparently borrowed from the English sport term, or at least influenced by.
    * תאקל taqel = incident, dispute. This one may be similar to the Persian term in this thread. Not sure whether it's related to any of the two above, I think not.
    I don't follow. להיתקל means to bump into something and fall to the ground "נתקל פושע הוא".
    תקלה seems naturally to stem from that notion.
    תאקל seems like pure Anglicism, and "תיקול" looks like the Hebrew version of this Anglicism.

    I believe t-q-l in Hebrew and "tackle" in English is a case of false cognate.

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    Hi,

    At first I thought تقلا taqallā (useless struggle) may be a corrupted Arabic word in باب تفعل like تسلا-تسلی. The closest thing I found was تغلی (anxiety resulted by fever).
    My second thought is that the word has a Turkish origin. In this regard, it can be related to تلاش tal
    āš.
    Another idea is that it has the same structure as تکاپوی
    takāpui (v. root+ a + v. root). but it is corrupted over time: تک + ا + لای (move and grieve).

    Is any of these correct? Or is there another story behind it?

    Thanks in advance.
    Yes, it is the 5th baab: تفعل tafa33ala !
    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    I found in Arabic forum (courtesy of lukebeadgcf), that taqalli means "to loath" and "to toss in bed". In my opinion, it suggests a concept of "trying not to face something unpleasant". It is common that the pronunciation of the last vowel in a word like this changes to a in Persian. I think the original meaning of taqalla in Persian was to "try not to face barriers, for achieving something". This is close to current meaning: (useless) struggle to achieve something.
    ....
    That is right! To loath is one meaning and your suggestion of "trying not to face something unpleasant" is also valid! Very close to the meanings I've found in Arabic.

    The root is ق-ل-ى which gives:
    قلا \ يقلو qalaa / yaqluu or قَلَى \ يَقلى qala /yaqli = To roast, fry; to drive way; to dislike.
    قَلِىَ \ يَقلَى qaliya / yaqla = (1) To hate / dislike; drive way. (2)To fry.
    From the 5th baab (تَفَعَّلَ) you get the desired word with the following meaning in Classical Arabic:
    تقلاً \ تقلىً إلى taqallan 2ilaa = To have hatred / dislike for.
    [Other derived meanings from forms I, II are قلَّاء qallaa2 = fryer; قُلىً qulan = summit; mountain top; crown of head, but قِلىً = hate / hatred, dislike, مقلى maqli = fried, etc.]
    Utlub al-‘ilm min al-mahd ilal-laHd Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave (Ali ibn Abi Talib)

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    Re: Origin of Persian تقلا

    Thanks everyone!

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