Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Native language
    Persian
    Posts
    1,247

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post

    In Dari, a rose = gulaab – same as in Urdu!

    It is interesting. In Persian, gol-e golaab is seldom used for red rose. Golaab is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Plato's Republic
    Native language
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Posts
    5,570

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    Originally Posted by Faylasoof

    In Dari, a rose = gulaab – same as in Urdu!
    It is interesting. In Persian, gol-e golaab is seldom used for red rose. Golaab is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?
    The Dari cookbook I have uses the term 3araq-e-gulaab عرق گلاب for rose water throughout. This is also one of the terms we use in Urdu.
    Utlub al-‘ilm min al-mahd ilal-laHd Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave (Ali ibn Abi Talib)

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    It is interesting. In Persian, gol-e golaab is seldom used for red rose. Golaab is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?
    This is the example I quoted in another thread.
    زنی بود گریه منظر و بینهایت زشت روی- اورا برای کوری عقد بستند و بمناکحش در آوردند-روزی زن بشوهرش گفت -افسوس که این صورت من چون آفتاب و رخسارۂ من چون گل گلاب از چشم تو پوشیده است


  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post

    In Dari, a rose = gulaab – same as in Urdu!

    It seems Platts, Shakespear, and Steingass all overlooked Dari when defining gulaab. Unless Dari has been influenced by Urdu in recent times to use gulaab for rose.
    Last edited by Wolverine9; 27th June 2013 at 8:41 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    A couple of examples of usage of "gulaab" for "rose", by Hafiz and Maulavi, the latter from Balkh (in Afghanistan)

    شکستہ کسمہ و بربرگ گل گلاب زدہ
    ز جرعہ بر رخ حور و پری گلاب زدہ
    حافظ

    ہمہ چون دانۂ انگور و دلم چون چرش است
    ہمہ چون برگِ گلاب و دلِِ من چون دکان
    مولوی

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Native language
    اُردو Urdu
    Posts
    5,810

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    It seems Platts, Shakespear, and Steingass all overlooked Dari when defining gulaab. Unless Dari has been influenced by Urdu in recent times to use gulaab for rose.
    I don't know how recent you are supposing it to be but in a small dictionary here: http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED192577.pdf you will find gulaab/golaab on p. 164. It was compiled in 1979.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Native language
    Persian
    Posts
    1,247

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylasoof View Post
    The Dari cookbook I have uses the term 3araq-e-gulaab عرق گلاب for rose water throughout. This is also one of the terms we use in Urdu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qureshpor View Post
    A couple of examples of usage of "gulaab" for "rose", by Hafiz and Maulavi, the latter from Balkh (in Afghanistan)

    شکستہ کسمہ و بربرگ گل گلاب زدہ
    ز جرعہ بر رخ حور و پری گلاب زدہ
    حافظ

    ہمہ چون دانۂ انگور و دلم چون چرش است
    ہمہ چون برگِ گلاب و دلِِ من چون دکان
    مولوی
    Gol-e golaab does not literally mean "rose flower" but "rosewater flower" or "the flower which produces rosewater". It is like to say "apple tree" درخت سیب to indicate "the tree which produces apple". Araq-e golaab can be compared to araq-e sekangabin while sekangabin is not a plant but mixture of vinegar and sugar.

    In Maulavii's poem, it doesn't refer to "rose". Golaab (Gol-e aab) also means water lily (lotus). Considering that couplet, lotus leaf is open and clear (contrasting to enclosed dark shop دکان).

    Anyway, the entry in that dictionary was interesting. It is likely that in Dari, gol-e golaab is shortened to golaab as the name of the flower.
    Last edited by Treaty; 28th June 2013 at 3:55 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty View Post
    Gol-e golaab does not literally mean "rose flower" but "rosewater flower" or "the flower which produces rosewater". It is like to say "apple tree" درخت سیب to indicate "the tree which produces apple". Araq-e golaab can be compared to araq-e sekangabin while sekangabin is not a plant but mixture of vinegar and sugar.

    In Maulavii's poem, it doesn't refer to "rose". Golaab (Gol-e aab) also means water lily (lotus). Considering that couplet, lotus leaf is open and clear (contrasting to enclosed dark shop دکان).

    Anyway, the entry in that dictionary was interesting. It is likely that in Dari, gol-e golaab is shortened to golaab as the name of the flower.
    barg-i-gulaab, to my mind, means "rose-petal/s" and not petal/s of rose-water!

    As an aside, I spoke with an Afghani friend of mine yeasterday and he told me that rose in his language (Dari) was gul-i-gulaab.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Native language
    Persian
    Posts
    1,247

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Yes, برگ گلاب also means petals of rose but I still don't get a contrast between it and دکان. That's why I found the "lotus" meaning more relevant.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Native language
    Chinese
    Posts
    1,876

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    I happened to read an article in Chinese about the etymology of rose yesterday.

    The author mentioned linguists believe rose in Indo-European languages is derived from vardha, which is found in Avestan. The variations were vard or vart in Pahlavi. The word can still be found in some modern Persian words. For examples, in Iran there’s a place named suhrvard, which means red rose or red flower. The surname of Mr Verdinejad, former Iranian Ambassador to China, is relevant to rose. Nejad means family, clan; and vardi or Verdi means rose planter.

    Here is the sum-up:

    In Persian: vardha—〉vard—〉val—〉gol
      
    In English: vardha—〉wrodhon—〉rodhon—〉rodh—〉rose


    I didn't translate it verbatim.


    Reference: Etymology of Rose from MOTS Sohu Blog (in Chinese)
    Last edited by Daffodil100; 29th June 2013 at 3:58 AM.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    The article you read in the blog is not entirely accurate. Read the first paragraph of the Iranica article on gol here.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Native language
    Chinese
    Posts
    1,876

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    The Iranian words are commonly assumed to be related to Gk. rhodon “rose” and Lat. rosa and to be of non-Indo-European origin (see, e.g., Watkins, s.v. wrod
    I don't understand why it is not accurate. It seems to me it vindicates the article. Rose is from rodhon, and rodhon for wrodhon, if we track it back?


    Last edited by Daffodil100; 29th June 2013 at 8:46 AM.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daffodil100 View Post
    I don't really understand why it is not accurate. It seems to me it vindicates the article. Rhodon is for rose, and isn't it for wrodhon?
    Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems the author you mentioned stated that the Indo-European (i.e. Greek and Latin) words are derived from the Avestan vardha. As Iranica shows, the Greek and Latin words are related to the Iranian ones, though not necessarily derived from the Avestan varəδa- (of uncertain meaning). They could be independent borrowings from the same (probably Semitic) source.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Native language
    Chinese
    Posts
    1,876

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine9 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems the author you mentioned stated that the Indo-European (i.e. Greek and Latin) words are derived from the Avestan vardha. As Iranica shows, the Greek and Latin words are related to the Iranian ones, though not necessarily derived from the Avestan varəδa- (of uncertain meaning). They could be independent borrowings from the same (probably Semitic) source.

    Yes, I mean that. Is rose in Semitic older than Avestan?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Native language
    Chinese
    Posts
    1,876

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    I have more to translate about the word for you and other folks. I will have to do it later. Got to go.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Native language
    American English
    Posts
    832

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daffodil100 View Post
    Yes, I mean that. Is rose in Semitic older than Avestan?
    Most likely, yes. Rose is attested in Akkadian.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Native language
    Persian
    Posts
    1,247

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daffodil100 View Post
    The author mentioned linguists believe rose in Indo-European languages is derived from vardha, which is found in Avestan. The variations were vard or vart in Pahlavi. The word can still be found in some modern Persian words. For examples, in Iran there’s a place named suhrvard, which means red rose or red flower. The surname of Mr Verdinejad, former Iranian Ambassador to China, is relevant to rose. Nejad means family, clan; and vardi or Verdi means rose planter.
    Please consider that ورد or وردی has three other meanings, at least:
    - vard = a place making suffix (~ gard). I suspect Suhravard is of this type.
    - verd = magical/religious spell
    - verdi or berdi = a Turkish suffix meaning "given" or "gift", found in some names (though, it may have an ultimate Perso-Soghdian root).

    Actually, vard with the meaning of rose is not usually used in Persian except in literary texts. In addition, that vard is Arabic.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Native language
    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Posts
    9,244

    Re: Persian: What is rose in Persian?

    From Wikipedia article..

    .نام نوعی گل رز است که از آن گلابمی‌گیرند: (Rosa damascena) گل محمدی یا گل گلاب (نام علمی



Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •